Episode II.V & VI – Beauty and the Beast – Part I & II
Join us for this double epsiode, discussing epsiode 5 and 6 of Season 2 of BBC Merlin!
#DestinyAndChicken
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2nd June 2021 @ 12:05 am
Late to the party. Kind of new to the fandom even though I have watched and liked this show back when they first aired.
Regarding your comments on these two episodes, I have to agree that:
1) it is a bit long for the story, one episode should be enough;
2) it is kind of pointless for a troll to desire power, but maybe her intention is to use the power to get more money out of tax…
3) Wasting potential on Arthur’s arc (but Arthur as a character was wasted big time in general, so… )
But I don’t think it would be a wise move to reveal Merlin’s magic to Uther. Because by doing that, they have to provide proof, which I think would take some extra efforts. Actually at this stage, even if she accuses Merlin being magic, the result would not be so different: Uther would want to catch Merlin, Arthur would help Merlin escape since he will never believe it. After the enchantment is broken, Uther would not believe her words against Merlin.
Also people wouldn’t just restrain Uther and kill the troll, because Uther has absolute power over his kingdom, unless you are planning a coup against him, nobody has the power to take such action. Also Uther was a great warrior once, there can be bloodshed in doing so. I think that could be the reason why the troll would not kill Uther, because she needs to rule through Uther after she has been exposed.
I just love Arthur’s willingness to do whatever in his power to help his people. And Gaius did say one drop of antidope is enough to bring Arthur back.
20th June 2021 @ 5:19 pm
welcome to the party, even if late 🙂
–Uther would want to catch Merlin, Arthur would help Merlin escape since he will never believe it. After the enchantment is broken, Uther would not believe her words against Merlin.–
yeah, you’re totally right. It’s ridiculous to think that that’s what would happen, but it totally is what would happen. Just like every other time when someone (a named someone, of course) is accused of magic, uther is ready to kill them, and then something entirely unrelated happens, and therefore we forgive and forget all… Oh BBC Merlin, you’re such a delightful pile of nonsense sometimes hahaha
M Xx
15th March 2021 @ 2:48 am
Has anyone else seen Medici the Magnificent and noticed both Bradley and the actress that plays Lady Katrina are in it and they play serious roles. Every time I see the actress I think she’s gonna turn into a troll 😂
15th March 2021 @ 2:58 am
My apologies! I just looked through the comments (which I should have done before commenting) and see that you have seen it! I just kept thinking the troll was gonna pop out!
17th March 2021 @ 10:15 am
haha no worries at all! We spend most of our lives watching television and either shouting MERLIN PERSON! or DOCTOR WHO PERSON! at the tv. it’s fun if you’re us, incredibly INCREDIBLY tedious if you are anyone else in the room with us hahaha
M Xx
8th March 2020 @ 9:59 pm
I REALLY apologise for the length of this comment – but this is already the edited version. I don’t know what that says about me…
Anyway, I re-watched these episodes twice in order to, maybe, find some lessons and logic. And I discovered something incredible: these episodes actually grew on me! Yes, the grossness which I always hated is still gross but I think I personally have learned that sometimes an episode (or two) can be so bad and so illogical, that they, somehow, become good? I mean, after all, the word “famous” is part of the word “infamous” and I think that’s what these troll episodes are. We love to hate them – and everyone always remembers those really bad episodes of every TV show, don’t they? My mum, for instance, watched the entirety of Merlin only once. I can ask her whether she might want to re-watch the episode with Knight Valiant and all I will get as a response would be a blank face. But mention the troll episodes and she remembers! I believe every Merlin fan will remember THOSE even when they’re ninety years old. So yeah, lesson for the producers perhaps? It’s okay to make really bad TV as long as it’s really, really outrageously, ridiculously, over-the-top bad? Or a lesson about human memory and predilections?
Viewers have learned about a similarity between Arthur and Uther: both suffer from a very advanced state of Protector of Beautiful Damsels in Distress Syndrome (aka. Sophia and Catrina). I think this is very interesting since it stresses the chivalric code these two live by. But whereas that is nothing new about Arthur, Uther rarely gets to show his true knightly qualities.
All of Camelot learns what a kind, positive and loving king, husband, and father Uther could have been if Ygraine had not died. This episode gives us glimpses of a tragic side to Uther that actually made me feel sorry for him and for all his tragic loss has destroyed. Perhaps this is why Gaius still serves him so loyally and risks even Merlin’s life: he remembers the personality and promising potential of the young Uther; perhaps he still hopes that one day, the pre-Purge Uther may emerge once again? I also think that Morgana and Arthur’s behaviour in the first episode speak of their understanding of Uther’s deep hurt: they are so supportive and accepting even of this sudden romance that I can’t help but think that they have long wished for someone to heal him and restore his happiness.
I also came up with a couple of far-fetched theories as to why the troll portrayal is so inconsistent.
Theory 1: In the first episode, Catrina’s plan is in the process of unfolding; she is tormented because she has to be beautiful and all the obstacles in her way frustrate her to no end, making her dangerous and creepy. In the second episode, she has achieved her goals and fancies herself firm and secure in her position as queen. Basically, the power goes to her head and she now feels safe to revel in her trollishness.
Theory 2: If the producers didn’t choose to show Catrina as more harmless and hilarious in the second episode, the whole business of Uther spending his nights with her would be beyond creepy. I mean, when comes down to it, this is basically bestiality on a family TV show so they needed to find a way to take off the edge of this rather serious issue and make it look funny rather than deeply traumatic.
Theory 3: So, the troll hates humans. How did she learn to be sensitive, to flirt, to behave like a lady? I think she may have read pretty much every typical (human) romance novel to prepare herself for her big role. She wants the gold and getting married to Uther seems to be the most fail-safe way to do that and hold on to it. However, as the troll learns to her chagrin, typical romance novels end with marriage – and that’s what Catrina assumed happened in real life too. She had not thought or planned beyond the wedding and, in the second episode, is now completely out of her depth. And what happens when we are overwhelmed? We regress to behaviour and attitudes most comfortable to us. In Catrina’s case: she becomes gross, ridiculous and troll-like.
Two last random things that I love in these episodes:
I think these two episodes are great for Arthur in general. With the king preoccupied/ enchanted/incapacitated, he finally has the chance to step out of Uther’s shadow and show his mettle, foreshadowing what kind of king he will one day become. You’ve already mentioned how understanding and caring he is about Merlin, even when he supposedly spies on Catrina. But the way Arthur replies, “I will not” when Uther orders him to re-collect all the money for extra taxes is my favourite moment by far: his tone is so gentle and humble, unassuming, yet firm. He doesn’t want to defy his father and he knows what the cost of that may be: but he must say it anyway and just shows so much humility and, thereby, his greatness of character. I love Arthur!
Also, did you guys mention that in the scene when Gaius and Merlin collect pots, Colin Morgan’s brother Neil was visiting him on set and Colin got him as a villager into pretty much all the shots? Watch it again and you’ll see! It’s so funny and quite heart-warming really. 😊
9th March 2020 @ 4:31 pm
“But whereas that is nothing new about Arthur, Uther rarely gets to show his true knightly qualities. ” – Ok, this is really interesting to me – I wouldn’t have thought that Uther’s behaviour was knightly, but I think that’s because I went in knowing where it was going: I saw his treatment of Catrina as selfishly motivated because of what was to come (ie assuming he lets her in because she’s pretty and he has a crush already), but actually without that foreknowledge it’s perfectly reasonable to assume he would potentially do this for any lady in distress, knowing that she would have nowhere else to go, and that it would be the expected thing to do. But I do wonder whether Arthur’s sense of chivalry goes deeper than Uther’s – Arthur would save anyone, not just a noblewoman; Uther isn’t risking anything by letting in a noblewoman who is already at his door, whereas Arthur saves Sophia from bandits (if I remember correctly) and although he’s strong enough to take them on I think he would have tried regardless. What I mean is, Arthur feels his chivalric duty as a strong moral compass, as his conscience, and it comes to him almost instinctively, whereas Uther is more calculating and the knightly behaviours are more a conscious choice to exhibit the expected behaviours. Not that Uther’s chivalry isn’t genuine when it does appear, just that it’s not so deep in his bones and it is in Arthur’s. And then when Uther is swayed by love (before the enchantment) or by other selfish motivations (even if those motivations come from a moral place too), the chivalry is put aside, whereas I don’t think we’ve ever seen anything sway Arthur’s chivalric nature, at least so far. The closest we’ve come is the unicorn curse, but he still wanted to protect his kingdom, he just took a while to accept the necessary actions to do so because theyimplicated him in magic (and they made him guilty, but I think if he had been guilty in a non-magical sense he would have been quicker to put it right).
9th March 2020 @ 7:32 pm
Oh, yeah. I completely agree that Arthur is definitely meant to be more intrinsically and genuinely knightly in his being than Uther, who only exhibits it at certain points and, like you said, when there isn’t much of a risk to himself or his reputation or power. He is more deliberate and calculating in his behaviour generally, but then he is the king and needs to act with diplomacy and tact. He is also older than Arthur, who is still fairly young and thus more prone to act on instinct anyway. I also think that Uther may just not have as many opportunities to showcase his knightly behaviour while rescuing maidens in the forest as Arthur has because he’s cooped up in his stuffy throne room.
I think we don’t need to necessarily separate chilvalric behaviour and adoration for a lady. In fact, complete dedication and service to your beloved/ adored was ingrained in the code. However, a knight was also meant to be selfless and not to think of his own reward for his service to the lady, and I think that’s where Arthur excels and Uther is maybe just a little more, shall we call it, mercenary? But then we did have the discussion about Arthur’s behaviour towards Guinevere in ‘Once and Future Queen’ and whether it was mainly motivated by his wish to ‘get the girl’ because it did not extend to Merlin as well. (Although, behaviour towards other men, especially knights, was an entirely different set of ‘chivalric rules’ again).
Overall, I think Uther is eventually very motivated to ‘get the girl’ but he does show quite a lot of restraint, especially at first, when he simply wishes to help Catrina, a beautiful, noblewoman. And that’s really all that can be asked of a good knight.
8th March 2020 @ 7:23 pm
I loved these episodes, even the fart jokes, the way the troll was giving Uther her dung presents. But my favorite parts were the ones with Merlin and Arthur, especially the whole potion scene. The comic timing was brilliant. Plus Arthur protecting Merlin as he did by misdirecting the search – and then to have him disinherited! Great stuff. Sorry you both didn’t like it.
7th March 2020 @ 11:53 pm
I think you guys called me by someone else’s name last time!! That aside, it’s such a delight hearing my comments being discussed. All these thoughts I’ve had since Merlin ended has a place to be. : D
Also, with your mention of Medici, I’d love to hear your thoughts on it some time. Watching Giuliano was such a bittersweet experience. Like he has a shadow of Arthur every now and then; they’re both meant to be young men from privileged backgrounds who has a certain role to fulfill in society/family. Yet…they are such different people. And he even jousts and wears midnight blue like Arthur. :’ (
Speaking of which, the no-hugging scene is the best and features my favourite blue jacket ever!
9th March 2020 @ 5:53 pm
We had a number of comments last week that were very similar and we may have untidily spliced them, but if we did associate your comment to the wrong name I am very sorry!! please forgive us 🙂 tidying up comments and getting them ready for podcast gets a bit frantic sometimes haha
We watched medici in roughly… 4 days? And yes, occassionally the Arthur parallels were a little over whelming… and then Giuliano turned out to be not quite as much of a golden boy as Arthur Pendragon, but then again, who is??
I enjoyed it, and that’s despite generally not being a huge fan of historical television.. I normally find a lot of them too slow and ponderous for my taste and I struggle with getting to know and care for the characters, but I really got into Medici, even in spite of the two seperate generations being talked about in the two seasons… and I was only annoyed for about five mintues when I realised I didn’t need to watch season 1, to appreciate and watch season 2 with bradley lol
12th March 2020 @ 1:47 am
Yeah, it was an engaging period drama, though some of the politics went over my head! Reading about the history, I found there wasn’t a lot we know about Giuliano apart from broad things like he was the handsome, sporty young man, with possibly a doomed romance…and end (lol Arthur parallels). With broad factors like these, I feel a bit sad that we tend to have more of the Giuliano types (playboy with a heart of gold) and less of the Arthurs (needs to grow up but is otherwise honourable). I liked how Arthur is kept open, like he could have been a player before Gwen (if that’s your interpretation) or he is completely chivalrous when it comes to these things. Giuliano’s intro scene kind of robbed me of this subtlety! Otherwise I really liked Giuliano’s cynicism and honesty.
30th March 2020 @ 8:02 pm
Sorry for the insane delay! Illness struck, as you may have caught. We’re hoping to get back on track soon…
I think that’s interesting about Arthur’s history being deliberately vague, and I agree about Giuliano. While I enjoyed his character and Bradley’s portrayal of him, I didn’t warm to him until almost two episodes from the end, when he looses his love, and genuinly grieves for her. Up to that point I didn’t feel like I could trust him falling in love, as I wasn’t entirely sure it wasn’t all just show and game and bravado… It’d be interesting to watch it again and see if the second time round, knowing that he does love her more than anything, I feel different about him early on…
4th April 2020 @ 10:14 am
No worries about the reply, I hope you guys are feeling well.
I agree about Giuliano –his devastation made you see it actually was love. When I first found out about the season 2 casting I casually researched the Medici history and got quite sad… I could see Giuliano being portrayed in a shallow way, but I could also see a more noble way. I read/thought about it quite a bit that I may have written my own historical-inspired story!
But after the series came out I have to admit the character was more likeable than I imagined. I particularly liked the anti-love speech and when he bitterly says he has so many lovers he doesn’t know who Lorenzo is talking about.
Btw this is my story Aquaria if you want to check it out!
https://www.fictionpress.com/s/3330451/1/Aquaria
Take care. Hope to hear you guys again soon. : )
16th November 2020 @ 7:24 pm
I know I’m late to the conversation, but I just watched up to 3×02 of Medici in basically two days, and I definitely wish they had given more time and attention to Giuliano, especially since there is so little we know about him. As you said, the lack of character depth until Simonetta’s death is really unfortunate, but I think there was the start of something else with Lorenzo/Giuliano/Francesco relationship (no, not shipping). there was a lot of stuff in the middle of the season with Giuliano feeling like Lorenzo was replacing him with Francesco (all the lines with “your new brother”, telling Simonetta that Lorenzo has someone else as his right hand). While I don’t get the impression that Giuliano really wants to be the head of the family, but there is definitely some hurt and even anger from his end, especially because Francesco was named Piero’s godfather rather that Giuliano. In 2×08, Lorenzo even says to Francesco that “there were times that Giuliano was jealous of you”. There’s just so much potential to explore these relationship dynamics, which would have added more depth to the show overall. The whole time through season 2, I was just sad about how Giuliano didn’t really feel like his family, especially his brother, needed him, or even particularly cared about. There’s also a sad lack of fic that explore this, though there are 3 or 4 gorgeous one shots on AO3 from Lorenzo’s POV (and one from Francesco’s, which is gutting, when he decides to kill Giuliano instead of Lorenzo to make Lorenzo watch).
Anyways…like Rez, I would definitely be interested in hearing your thoughts on the show, since I don’t know anyone but my mom who has watched the show, and listening to other people and initiating conversation is always interesting.
7th March 2020 @ 8:33 pm
I am so excited to have finally caught up, but so sad that this is the episode that I’ve caught up with! I listen to these podcasts while I’m running, and I think my favorite so far has been in Excalibur when y’all were talking about putting the sword “where no man can ever find it…. lobs it eight feet into a lake,” solely because I laughed so hard I fell over on the track at the gym! I’ve loved rewatching all of these episodes with your commentary in my head and seeing new things that I missed in the past.
I watched Merlin as a 10ish year old when it first came out, and I vaguely remembered these episodes from then (this is one of the ones that I flat out refused to rewatch over the years) but watching them again reminded me of why I didn’t like it: I saw it as a kid and didn’t think it was very funny, and watching it as an adult, I realize that while that episodes were intended to be geared more towards children, what with the fart jokes and nasty troll behavior, a lot of the jokes were quick and went over my head as a kid, or I thought it was all too gross. After watching them this time around, I feel like they could have done a lot to make them good/better episodes if there were less focus on the absurd and gross, because the general plot wasn’t the worst thing in the world, and the acting was divine and absolutely hilarious.
After giving it some thought, I think I would have reordered the episodes and made this the season 2 opener, condensing it into one episode, and swapped it with Cornelius Sigan and made that a two parter. The little Gwen/Arthur interactions we had would have been a good segue into Once and Future Queen, and a lot of reestablishing moments could have easily been worked in.
As for lessons, I think Arthur is learning that he has the support of the people separate from Uther; he has their love and trust because of the time he spends interacting with people in the lower town and defending them personally, while Uther is more of ruler on the throne who issues orders and executions. The audience learns that the knights, guards, and others in the castle take Uther’s word literally as law, no matter how absurd or unreasonable his requests are (otherwise they definitely would have locked him up as soon as Catrina was revealed to be a troll; king or not, that’s definitely magic/an enchantment). On that same note, all of these characters should have learned that strangers coming out of nowhere and befriending nobles in high places are Up To No Good (they never learn this, I’m afraid).
7th March 2020 @ 3:59 pm
Late joining the lesson game this season, but one thing I want to be able to say Merlin has learned is that Gaius will risk the life of literally anybody on behalf of Uther. I suppose it would be more charitable to say that he is doing this on behalf of Camelot, but I personally struggle to read it that way. I think part of my struggle is that Gaius is a) a demonstrably terrible physician, b) a known magic user, and c) amazingly good at irritating Uther all the time. I figure he must on some level realize all that and therefore feel so grateful to/dependent on Uther that he will sacrifice Morgana, Merlin, or even Arthur rather than risk a break with Uther.
Also found these eps very frustrating regarding laws of magic. Is Gaius able to make potions because he’s a magic user? Or could anyone with some frogs and eyeballs make a potion? Granted, the one he makes this time is fake, but still. All the questions.
And finally…how does NO ONE notice Jonas’ ears?
6th March 2020 @ 8:50 pm
Everything you liked about this episode is why I love it.
When Sir Leon say, “They’re more like tusks.”
And Gaius retorts with,”Not that we’re saying its necessarily a bad thing.”
I just laugh.
Morgana chasing after Lady Katrina in that tight dress waddling is hilarious.
My favorite part is when Uther asks the “troll” if everything is to her satisfaction and say says “No.” The look she gives is just perfect.
This episode just tickles me (even though I’m not a fart humor person).
But I 100% agree in the space of the show is definitely a detour episode. I’d definitely would have preferred S2:E9 be the 2 hour episode. But no spoilers. You’ll just have to watch and see why. #LoveIsInTheAir
5th March 2020 @ 3:27 pm
OK I am VERY annoyed that Jonas’ tail changes appearance between the two episodes with NO acknowledgment whatsoever. Gaius’ insistence that Merlin has to do magic in front of the king made me literally pause Netflix and stand up and take a walk because that’s… insane.
Regarding “why does the troll want to be queen?!”, I assumed it was that she would become queen, tax the everloving whatever out of them, and then murder Uther and leave with all the shiny stuff – like just what she can steal isn’t enough, she wants all the gold in Camelot. Not that that’s made clear, and not that that explains why trolls like gold so much, but they’re just drawing on fantasy tropes and at least it wasn’t a goblin… *cough* Jk Rowling *cough*
I completely agree with you about the Arthur arc being wonderful but wasted. Both telling his father “you’re wrong” and sneaking Merlin out before he even has any proof that the accusation is false. The idea of Arthur being disinherited is fascinating, and I would have loved a full (multi-episode?) arc with Arthur questioning whether maybe his father was right and he wasn’t cut out to be king after all and Merlin and/or Gwen having to help him regain his confidence or prove himself… but no 🙁
The not-a-hug scene is one I cannot watch for secondhand-embarrassment reasons, I’ve never rewatched it since it first aired and yet it is seared into my brain forever and since it aired I have remembered it at random moments. It tortures me. I do agree with you about Merlin finding it funny being the thing that makes Arthur’s blokiness ok.
In terms of lessons, I would like it if Merlin had learnt that outright saying “she’s a troll!” is not the way to make someone take you seriously, but clearly he didn’t learn the equivalent lesson with “Cedric is possessed!” so… maybe not. A slightly more serious possibility is that two lessons are not so much learnt as revised and strengthened: Merlin learns how much Arthur trusts him and respects him despite all appearances, and Arthur learns to trust his own morals rather than what he’s told by his father.