Hogwarts Houses
In this hiatus episode we sort the Merlin characters into Hogwarts Houses. Wish to argue with our sorting? Please do! Come talk to us and give us your sorting choices! Let the blood bath begin!
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10th September 2020 @ 12:59 pm
damnit half my comment got cut off. Here’s the rest:
Post-listening: Lancelot is definitely Hufflepuff primary and Gryffindor secondary. I feel like Merlin is either Hufflepuff primary and Slytherin secondary, or Slytherin primary (that feels so wrong though and I don’t know why!) and over time moves from Hufflepuff secondary to Burned Hufflepuff. Loyalty keeps failing him, hard work keeps failing him, and only Slytherin cunning and manipulation seems to pay off. Ooh so he’s Hufflepuff primary and Slytherin secondary, then the Hufflepuff is burned and he exclusively models Slytherin?
I basically agree with all of your other conclusions except Morgana being Slytherin – but I can’t put my finger on why, and I can’t see any way of fitting her into other houses.
Finally, as a trans fan your support of the trans community means a lot 🙂 You guys are really great.
10th September 2020 @ 12:46 pm
I finally got around to the hiatus episodes! I got sucked into the fandom of another podcast and then life things happened, but here I am back on the Merlin train and very excited for season 3 🙂
I think the phrase “fascination and frustration” applies to Harry Potter more than most other fandoms lmao – the world of Hogwarts, the house system, and the fandom are an endless source of fascination, but WOW is it frustrating, especially now.
Before even listening to this I looked up the primary/secondary thing because I vaguely remembered that it existed, and took this quiz myself: [https://ejadelomax.itch.io/sortinghatchats](https://ejadelomax.itch.io/sortinghatchats)
So, I’ve always considered myself a Ravenclaw, but I think actually although I’m definitely a Ravenclaw secondary, my primary house might be Hufflepuff (based on the quiz I linked, but I kind of felt like that might be the case going in). Essentially what that means is that what drives me is fairness and loyalty, but the way I go about trying to enact or achieve that is via logic, learning, reason, and analysis. But at the same time, the pursuit of knowledge absolutely drives me more than most other things in life, I just don’t want to hurt or neglect others in the process.
29th July 2020 @ 8:12 pm
I really think Merlin is a Slytherin, for all the reasons you talked guys about, but I also noticed that he is very manipulative! He manages to change people’s – mainly Arthur’s – mind about so many different things. This may partly be because Arthur has come to trust Merlin so much (eventually), but I don’t think that this is the main factor. Examples so far include Lancelot to go against his original will to pretend to be of noble birth, changing Arthur’s mind so many times but my favourite example is in series 5, episode 5 ‘The Disir’ (if you’ve seen the episode then you’ll know what I’m talking, Colin Morgan is incredible in that episode!).
31st July 2020 @ 9:02 pm
I agree. Colin Morgan is amazing in that episode. It’s still my least favourite. It’s such a terribly hopeless episode from start to finish. There is that terrible conversation where Merlin literally refused to smile because there’s nothing to smile about. 🙁
I’m not sure I’d call what Merlin does manipulation. He advises Arthur but I don’t think he ‘makes’ him decide a certain way. Even in that Disir episode, things kind of happen and then Merlin tries to work them out to best serve Arthur and his survival. But he doesn’t initiate anything. It’s even Arthur who asks Merlin about his opinion. He doesn’t offer it himself.
Yeah, I’d call him an advisor at that point and if his actions seem manipulative, I think it’s because he’s put in certain situations and is not given many options. So, he has to decide and then pursue that decision for better or for worse.
But we might talk about the same thing and use different terms.
I’m not sure that manipulation is necessarily a Slytherin trade. Dumbledore, in my opinion, is the greatest manipulator in HP and he was a Gryffindor.
6th August 2020 @ 12:05 pm
I don’t know how Dumbledore was ever a gryffindor. He made 11 year old children fight his battles for him, for christ’s sake!
I may have some pent up dumbledore issues from long ago….
I’m sure we will talk about Merlin and manipulation vs advising in 3/4/5, because from memory, we see both. Like there are times when Merlin wants Arthur to very clearly do something, and he’s getting him to do this in various ways, but (again, from what i remember, and it has been a while!!) those moments are often comedic and everyone, including merlin, is aware that he is getting arthur to do the thing he wants him to do, but for good reasons. and then there’s really heavy moments, where arthur needs to make a decision, and merlin quite neutrally advises him, and I certainly feel like he managed to not sway one way or the other (out loud at least) quite well. and then there are moments where arthur makes the wrong decision, without or inspite or merlin’s advice, and Merlin manages to not use that again Arthur… which I feel someone truely manipulative might? racking of points on your side, as it were, so in future arguments you can call back to how arthur messed up that time that he didn’t listen to merlin, so he now needs to listen to merlin…
It’ll be interesting to find out if any of this is actually what happens, or whether i’m remembering complete nonsense haha
18th August 2020 @ 6:05 pm
Don’t worry. I think your memory serves you very well and I look forward to the upcoming seasons where we can discuss these issues more.
I think with Merlin it’s sometimes going to be hard to differentiate between advising and manipulating as well because WE as viewers know there is always an ulterior motive behind all Merlin says and does and advises. Whether that’s ‘Protect Arthur’ or ‘Keep the magic secret’ or ‘Help unite Albion’ or ‘Free magic’, it doesn’t really matter so much. It’s more what Merlin does with it and also what Arthur, who doesn’t know about his motivies, sees him do.
The question I guess is whether manipulation is in the eye of the beholder (i.e. Arthur or us) or actually coming from Merlin. Gosh, it’s quite difficult to explain. What I mean is that we might interpret some actions of Merlin as manipulation because we know what he is hoping to achieve whereas in fact, Arthur or even Merlin himself might not see it that way.
Considering Merlin’s character (for the first four seasons at least), I think he isn’t pushy about his goals so instead of manipulation, I might say he is guiding or steering Arthur. I don’t think those terms are synonymous with manipulating as there is a different ‘tone’ to your actions and different priorities.
If you manipulate, your goals are more important to you than the person you manipulate. But if you guide, then the person and their wellbeing and personal choice always take precedence over your goals. And since Merlin always puts Arthur first, even over those ulterior motives I have mentioned above, I don’t think I can call any of it manipulation.
But anyway…more of this conversation to happen soon.
Also, I don’t think you’re the only one having issues with Dumbledore. But then, I have always had greater issues with the film Dumbledore than with the book Dumbledore. But yeah, neither strikes me as a Gryffindor, really. Hm…
Now I am wondering whether the Sorting Hat even has any sort of system. Maybe it’s just everyone’s assumption that he bases his sorting of students on some kind of wisdom or rules. And each year, the Hat makes up these silly rhymes to keep everyone happy that they are being ‘boxed’ with some sort of reasoning behind it.
Maybe Rita Skeeter should do an exclusive interview with the Hat and we’d discover that he actually sorts people on a whim and doesn’t have any sort of system at all. That’s be a fun read…
29th July 2020 @ 4:22 pm
Thank you for such an interesting hiatus podcast episode.
I don’t have twitter so I am commenting here and also would like to vote for ‘Lancelot and Guinevere’ as the drinking game episode for season 2. I love the other choices but I don’t know if I fancy being drunk AND bawling because they are so sad. Comparatively, ‘Lancelot ad Guinevere’ is only a little sad at least.
So, I made sure to write down the houses for the four central Merlin characters BEFORE listening to your podcast and I even went back to check the HP books for what the Sorting Hat says about the different houses. Then I tried to imagine what our four characters were like as children around the age of 11 and that’s what I based my sorting on. I guess it’s not a perfect system because A) we can’t say for sure what Arthur, Merlin, Gwen and Morgana were really like as children, B) The Sorting Hat would take their choices into account and C) I am guessing the Sorting Hat has some kind of ability to see the future of the children he sorts and takes their development and not just their current state into account? Maybe? I don’t actually know.
Anyway, this is how I think the characters would be sorted, if they joined Hogwarts at age 11.
Gwen – Gryffindor
I think this one was the most obvious for me because Gwen is like a female Neville Longbottom without all the ineptitude. She is really kind and, at first, no one quite knows why on earth she has been put in Gryffindor but as time passes her bravery and noble character are apparent when she stands up for what is right, especially when it’s most difficult, being brave to face the ‘mundane’ troubles of life or there is absolutely nothing in it but trouble for herself. Merlin is brave, sure, but he has to be. He is constantly thrown into these situations and I guess he could either give up and die or do something and be brave. Arthur is brave because everyone expects it of him and also because it is very much part of his character. But there is the nurture/ nature issue here for sure. But Gwen often has no reason to be brave or act honourably. As far as she knows, there is no mighty destiny awaiting her, she has no special position in the kingdom. She is only brave in the small often invisible ways: She has been looking after her father and earning money for who knows how long; she speaks up for the people of Ealdor and puts Arthur in his place when there is nothing in it for her. She helps with the druid boy and we are never told that she even considers not doing the right thing here.
So, I think Gwen would be sorted into Gryffindor and whereas at first, people might be confused, at the end of her final year, it would be apparent for everyone.
Arthur – Gryffindor
That one is obvious too and I agree with all your reasoning. It is interesting that you sorted Lancelot into Hufflepuff because that meant Gwen, if she had ‘chosen’ a romance with Lancelot, would have followed her Hufflepuff tendencies. But eventually marrying Arthur means that she stays true to her more Gryffindor self. I don’t know if this makes sense. I am imagining a fanfic where Gwen is on the way to Hogwarts with her long-time friend Lancelot, meets this annoying but clearly noble dude called Arthur and when the Sorting Hat asks her about her choice, needs to make a decision based on the two boys that personify the two houses. I don’t know…It would be funny to read anyway.
Morgana – Slytherin
Unfortunately, I think this is true but I also had a thought about her possibly being a Ravenclaw, purely because one year with Morgause and another few years locked up in a hut, dungeon or derelict castle without any magical instructors or textbooks were enough for Morgana to learn enough advanced magic to hold her own against Emrys for so long. But I guess if we say that Ravenclaws study for the sake of knowledge alone, her Ravenclaw tendencies are only slight to say the least.
It was interesting for me that you pointed out that Morgana is unsuccessfully ambitious and Uther unsuccessfully Gryffindor. So, does ambition with a good dose of disappointment and failure make one a Slytherin, or an evil Slytherin (because the two aren’t the same thing)?
Then Merlin, by the end of the series, should be the most evil Slytherin of them all because the point and purpose of his entire existence, as we have been told and he believes, was to protect Arthur, restore magic to the kingdom and unite Albion. But then his awesome magic fails at the rather simpler task of healing Arthur. So, Merlin is unsuccessfully trying to fulfil his destiny and he is ambitious, aka. evil Slytherin en par with Uther and Morgana?
Merlin – Hufflepuff
I’m sorry but I think were Merlin sorted as an 11-year old, he would most definitely be a Hufflepuff. I mean, going back to the Hufflepuff verse in the first HP book, it practically screams ‘Merlin’ when I read it: You might belong in Hufflepuff, Where they are just and loyal, Those patient Hufflepuffs are true, And unafraid of toil. At the very least, I think Merlin would have asked to be in Hufflepuff. But then, seeing that destiny always wants to make Merlin suffer, the Sorting Hat might have put him in a different house just to spite him. Anyway, I think even if he might be a Slytherin later in the series, it is because he has been forced to develop into one by circumstances and people constantly out to get him or others he cared about. I don’t think it’s his true nature which is why I always feel that the season 5 Merlin is such a complete departure from the character that has been established beforehand. He basically acts out of character for that entire season, most especially at the end when he abandons Gwen, Gaius and Camelot to go off and mope somewhere alone. Every time I see this ending, I scream at the TV (for other reasons too, obviously) because the Merlin I know wouldn’t abandon the people he loves even if he didn’t believe himself to be ‘destined’ for them.
Okay, obviously, this is all based on my personal feelings and interpretation of the Merlin characters and Hogwarts Houses so feel free to disagree with me. 😊
6th August 2020 @ 11:59 am
I’m afraid the vote was overwhelmingly for the last dragonlord… but if it helps at all, it is probably the ultimate drinking game episode, as far as the rules and the actual drinking is concerned… so hopefully our nonsense babbling will completely cover the sad.
ooooh.. I think sorting them when you think about them as children is an interesting angle and yeah, we obviously talk a bit about how there’s no way people do not change throughout their life, but we didn’t actually do anything with it, other than obviously Mordred, who IS a child. But yes, I completely agree that a baby Merlin would be a massive Hufflepuff. Which is also why fanfic Merlin is a massive Hufflepuff.
And no, I don’t actually know the background on the sorting hat. How it came to be and what its actual rules and more importantly… knowledge and qualifications (lol) are, for sorting children, and whether any of it is based on future knowledge… like, surely the hat must be able to see the ‘core’ of people, but that only works if we are saying that the core of someone doesn’t change throughout their life… which I do not believe to be true. So yeah, it all gets very convoluted and ultimately just over and over goes to show why it’s a bad idea to put people in boxes haha
And yes, I can absolutely see baby Gwen being Gryffindor with your described ‘Why is SHE in Gryffindor?? Oooooh, that’s why…’ arc.
–It is interesting that you sorted Lancelot into Hufflepuff because that meant Gwen, if she had ‘chosen’ a romance with Lancelot, would have followed her Hufflepuff tendencies. But eventually marrying Arthur means that she stays true to her more Gryffindor self.—
I get that, and it’s now got me pondering what in canon HP pairings say about things… but the whole story was so fractioned, that actually, Gryffindors just married Gryffindors and so on, most of the time, wasn’t it? So the book canon probably doesn’t have anything hugely helpful to tell us, but now I’m also thinking there must be HP fic (I was never an avid reader, so literally don’t know) where people meet as adults, hit it off, and then find out that they are a Gryffindor and slytherin and are thrown for a bit of a loop, before realising that getting sorted at 11 years old is dumb and they should just continue loving each other… haha
— But I guess if we say that Ravenclaws study for the sake of knowledge alone, her Ravenclaw tendencies are only slight to say the least.—
Yeah, it’s studying driven by ambition, isn’t it? So the ulterior motive is the strong one in this scenario I think.
— So, does ambition with a good dose of disappointment and failure make one a Slytherin, or an evil Slytherin (because the two aren’t the same thing)?—
Certainly I think having ambition as your core characteristic and constantly failing is going to make you bitter and miserable, so yeah, I guess being a slytherin at your core, but being bad at it, is going to drive you to despair and (potentially) ultimate evil-ness?
–So, Merlin is unsuccessfully trying to fulfil his destiny and he is ambitious, aka. evil Slytherin en par with Uther and Morgana?—
Honestly? It’s not somewhere that fanon has gone very often, but if we objectively look at the series, where merlin has this great destiny to get Arthur to be the best king that albion’s ever had, unite the land, and restore magic to it… and then Arthur dies, having done pretty much absolutely none of that. And not only does Merlin fail to save him, he also after Arthur dies has to look back at the last ten years of his life and realise that it was all… kind of for nothing… you couldn’t blame him if he snapped and became embittered and depressed in the best case scenario, uber evil a la marvel villain in the worst case scenario. Because surely huge ambition, combined with the brains and skills to achieve great things, and then failing to achieve them is basically the origin story of 90% of villains…
18th August 2020 @ 5:46 pm
Oh wow, I only realised that you left me a comment now! Sorry, especially since you put so so much thought into your response.
“surely the hat must be able to see the ‘core’ of people, but that only works if we are saying that the core of someone doesn’t change throughout their life… which I do not believe to be true. So yeah, it all gets very convoluted and ultimately just over and over goes to show why it’s a bad idea to put people in boxes”
– I actually agree. In real life, I would find any way to rebel against extreme ‘Sorting Hat’ systems (and there are enough of them out there!). It can be as simple as people as people asking me where I am from and then not accepting my reply that I consider myself belonging to many places/ people/ cultures. I think it confuses people and their ‘boxes’ and our human wish to see a pattern or order in everything.
Similarly, I also agree that the core of a human being changes throughout their life. If there even is a core. I guess it’s kind of dangerous to suggest that people don’t have a core because it, somehow, implies, that we are only superficial beings with nothing to root us down. But what I mean is that I don’t think humans have a sort of set, steady core inside them like peaches do. I think human cores are more made out of playdough. There is a certain consistency to that too (all playdough is made up of certain ingredients, for example) but the greatest thing about it is that it has so much potential to be shaped into a lot of different things, an re-shaped again and again throughout our play/life.
Okay, how did I get here? I swear it wasn’t the drinking game…
Anyway, despite all my misgivings about ‘Sorting Hat’ systems in real life, I am still utterly fascinated by the Sorting Hat ceremony and all it entails in fiction…
“I’m also thinking there must be HP fic (I was never an avid reader, so literally don’t know) where people meet as adults, hit it off, and then find out that they are a Gryffindor and slytherin and are thrown for a bit of a loop, before realising that getting sorted at 11 years old is dumb and they should just continue loving each other”
– I haven’t read any HP fanfiction, I’m afraid. But if there isn’t this kind of fic yet, there definitely should be. 🙂
“you couldn’t blame him if he [Merlin] snapped and became embittered and depressed in the best case scenario, uber evil a la marvel villain in the worst case scenario. Because surely huge ambition, combined with the brains and skills to achieve great things, and then failing to achieve them is basically the origin story of 90% of villains”
– YEP! So true. I have to say that when I first saw the final episode I was crying, crying, crying. Not necessarily over Arthur. He had a beautiful death and ought to have had more time. But then he is promised to return (by the lying snake of a dragon – so maybe that won’t ever happen?) and won’t notice any time passing because he is currently dead. And even if he doesn’t return, he is still blissfully dead.
But Merlin – I just cried so much because not only did none of what had been foretold come to pass, his sacrifices and suffering and work had all been for nothing and his best friend just died but he had also literally achieved immortality the day before. So, yeah, that wasn’t just a slap in the face. That was an Old Religion/ destiny/ lying lizard/ Morgana wins after all because she’s dead and he still has to suffer FOREVER slap in the face!
I think if he stays alone he probably will become an embittered and depressed villain. And right he would be. Hmm, could Merlin be at all related to the Slytherin family? Do you think he might have tried to end himself by creating lots of Horcruxes (he definitely killed enough people for a couple dozen) and then blasting them all bit by bit into oblivion?
Or he would have gone back to Camelot and help Gwen. And that’s what I think he really would have done. I cannot see him staying forever at the side of a lake alone, waiting for Arthur to return.
Waahh, okay. Hopefully that makes some sort of sense.
22nd September 2020 @ 10:24 am
–It can be as simple as people as people asking me where I am from and then not accepting my reply that I consider myself belonging to many places/ people/ cultures.–
Absolutely!! it’s basically anything that leads to someone responding with “No, like, sure, but what is the ACTUAL answer…”
Much less heavy in terms of theme, but we lived with someone for a while who basically couldn’t cope when you served a meal that didn’t have a name. Like, they didn’t really cook, so a lot of it stemed from that insecurity and lack of knowledge, whereas the rest of us cooked all the time, and as in any household that cooks almost nightly, quite often dinner would be ‘shit that is in the fridge’ but this person just couldn’t cope with that as an answer. They’d eat the food and often absolutely love it, but then they’d go “oh wow, this is amazing, what is it?” and you’d say “eh, stir fry stuff that what we had” and it would just not compute and quite often make them really angry… I think partially because they really liked the food and they wanted to be able to tell people / order it in a restaurant, but partially also just because they couldn’t cope with NOT KNOWING.
People absolutely do like boxes and I think anything that doesn’t fit in a box is weird and difficult and it means you’re just being difficult. Like with the ‘where are you from’ question. If you started the answer with ‘I’m from X, but… I consider myself to…’ and then expand, I think most people would be okay, because basically they have their response, and they can stop paying attention after X. But if you skip that part, it just freaks their brain out, and rather than pay attention and listen to what you are saying, they think you’re just being purposefully difficult.
–Okay, how did I get here? I swear it wasn’t the drinking game…–
haha i completely agree though! play dough is exactly it. because the second you are conceived, so much about who you have the potential of being is limited, by genetics, by location, by financial circumstances, however that doesn’t mean you can only ever be one thing, just what it means is that you can’t be some of the billion things there are out there in the world. but it leaves all the rest of those billion things that your play dough core can totally change into over time
–Do you think he might have tried to end himself by creating lots of Horcruxes (he definitely killed enough people for a couple dozen) and then blasting them all bit by bit into oblivion?–
well that went dark very fast! haha I know i started it by saying merlin would become the uber villain but OUCH! 😉
–Or he would have gone back to Camelot and help Gwen. And that’s what I think he really would have done. I cannot see him staying forever at the side of a lake alone, waiting for Arthur to return.–
I like to think so, because otherwise we’re playing right into the ‘only one person can possibly matter to you and you do not care about anyone else!!!’ thing that TV does all the time and NO! just no. I just refuse.