Episode IV.VII – The Secret Sharer
We discuss Episode 7 of Season 4 of Merlin, The Secret Sharer
Check out The List of Destiny to see where we ranked all Merlin episodes so far and don’t forget to write in for our Lessons Learnt game by Sunday midnight, the week after the episode airs. (use the submission form here)
We love hearing from listeners! Come talk to us on Twitter and Tumblr, or email us and please review us on iTunes.
If you wish to support us, you can do so from $1 a month via Patreon, or as a one off, by buying us a Ko-Fi or two. Thank you.
26th May 2021 @ 10:01 pm
This isn’t my favorite episode or even on the top 20 but Merlin and Arthur’s scene in the council chamber makes up for the rest of the episode in spades. The acting was amazing, the pain in Merlin’s eyes perfect. I also loved Gwen and Merlin in this and Gwaine and Merlin, too. I wish we had had more of both of them in other episodes. I can imagine Eoin Macken’s annoyance with being first Gwaine being a fool in other episodes and then so great in this episode. Anyway, really enjoyed your takes on it.
27th May 2021 @ 1:56 pm
I actually find episodes like this more frustrating than many others, because I agree, this wouldn’t even occur to me when asked for my top 20 merlin episodes, and so I don’t re-watch it, which means I miss out on the awesome Merlin and Gwen, Merlin and Gwaine, and the fab acting all around, which always makes me more frustrated, than a straight up bad episode I don’t want to watch, if that makes sense?
also look! you’re over halfway!!!
M Xx
13th April 2021 @ 9:50 am
Hello everyone –
So it’s my first time ever commenting on something on the internet! How exciting!
So what’s compelled me to break my silence? Agravaine. What’s up with that guy?
As an answer to this question, here’s my headcannon:
First, what information do we have from the show? – Agravaine’s a middle aged man with no wife or kids that we’ve heard of. He doesn’t seem to have magic. He hates Uther.
Agravaine’s explanation of his hatred towards Uther is one of revenge, because Uther killed his sister Igraine. But what if that’s only kinda true? I suggest that Agravaine is actually more motivated by jealousy. He didn’t seem to be part of Uther’s court, perhaps he was shunned by the Alpha male king Uther. And to also have his sister linked to Uther – and in a real sense, have her gain more power than Agravaine will ever have (how insulting for a man!), then his jealousy could easily spread to the Pendragon family as a whole. Perhaps he hated his sister as well as Uther, and then by extension, Arthur.
This would help with explaining Agravaine’s loyalty to both Morgana personally and her cause. When I first saw the end of The Servant With Two Masters, I was struck with how distraught Agravaine was after finding Morgana hurt. It appeared he has personal feelings for her, not just her cause. She treats him like a beautiful but scornful wife but is young enough to be his daughter. She is instead his enemy Uther’s daughter, but one that also hates him. Here Agravaine can almost be seen to be taking Uther’s place. Sounds like a perfect fit for an obsession to me.
Morgana’s cause seems to have settled around the idea of ending Pendragon rule, also something a jealous Agravaine would support. It’s less about concrete objectives, and more about their personal emotional darkness.
This still leaves us with the question of why does Arthur listen to Agravaine.
Firstly, Agravaine is an Uther substitute for Arthur as well.
Secondly, he actually has a talent for sounding very sensible, initially. He says things like “a show of strength is necessary because your enemies consider you an untested king” , or “you must rule with your head, not your heart”, or recently, ” It’s my job to protect you (the king) by investigating everyone as a possible traitor”. These are reasonable things to say to a king.
This is where it gets difficult. After a solid start, Agravaine follows up with extreme advice that does not follow logically from his opening statements. “Therefore we have no choice but to kill King Carleon!” What?
Sadly, we are left to conclude that Arthur is terrible at following a logical argument.
I fear this is something that won’t change soon, as in “His Father’s Son” Arthur learned that he should be using his heart, not his head. This is a false dichotomy, but one that the characters in Merlin really like using.
I’m playing around with the idea that Merlin manages to unite both the heart and the head of the show, but it’s not clear how well that fits….
So now that’s finished – I’m to watch Lamia.
From what I remember, Agravaine does not feature in this episode at all, so there’s probably no development for me on the Agravaine front this week.
Looking forward to Thursday as always!
13th April 2021 @ 11:48 am
Hi Kai!
Welcome to the website madness and thank you for your detailed thoughts on Agravaine! I hope you don’t mind us reserving your comment for the S4 round up episode (that will be upon us before we realise!!!)
–So now that’s finished – I’m to watch Lamia.
From what I remember, Agravaine does not feature in this episode at all, so there’s probably no development for me on the Agravaine front this week.–
actually, having just watched it last night…. Agravaine is weird in it (but then again, so is the whole episode!!) so be interesting to see what you make of him in Lamia….
M Xx
13th April 2021 @ 1:55 pm
I like this!! I am going to keep this theory in mind while watching the rest of this season! Well done!
13th April 2021 @ 4:26 pm
Hi Kai!
Indeed, an utterly fab logic to the character of Agravaine. If only the makers thought of all this. There’s always a baddie we love to hate, but what’s better is a baddie we hate to love because of an added complexity and established motive.
Agravaine does have an vibe that there was more to him that the makers showed, as if the show was the adaptation of a book and only the deeper levels of Agravaine are gotten from reading the book.
I see him as the youngest of three, and his favourite sibling, his sister Ygraine married the king who would bully him in court, as you put it, coz he’s the alpha. Funny how Tristan du Bois is never brought up again, considering his death was also at the hands of Uther. After Ygraine’s death, Tristan being the eldest and warrior trained, challenged Uther and died fighting him. Agravaine seems to me like he was the scholar of the three, the quiet awkward one. Not a fighter, and this might be why he left. Either Uther banished him or he left himself to avoid conflict. He must though have on occasion come back every now and then, since Arthur once says ‘I’ve known my uncle since I was a child’. Though he wasn’t invited to Arthur’s wedding in s3 (coz Agravaine wasn’t created then obvs).
This could lead Arthur to flimsily excuse why Agravaine’s advice has been off when it comes to military tactics and war. Arthur seems to listen to Agravaine more on political and courtly matters, as might be his forte, but out-rightly saying he should just cut off the head of a fellow leader and expert no repercussions, that’s just something I cannot get my head round. It’s like Arthur forgot his own 20 odd years of ingrained military knowledge and kingdom relationships in one episode.
I really do like your thoughts on old Aggy, people hate him, but I kinda like him (or maybe I like Nathaniel haha), but his headcanon backstories sure expand him more than the show did. He lost both siblings to pendragons yes, but Morgana is also one. She is just the one that has boobs and Aggy’s like ‘jokes on you, I’m into that!’
There’s a deleted scene from the start of series 4 where Agravaine actually says something like ‘I declared my love for you’ and Morgana responses ‘I need more than that’, before twisting his wrist. Total cringe haha!
13th April 2021 @ 3:29 am
Hello!
First of all, Ruth, I was just giving you a hard time! You could never take away that beautiful hug from me (although I do have to do some intentional mental compartmentalization now when I watch it😊)!
I know Gaius is nobody’s favorite character, but how many times must he prove his loyalty?! Is it because 1) they have a limited amount of main characters 2) because we are saying that Arthur values the word of royalty/blood over life-long servants (which was not the case in earlier episodes of this show and a lesson Arthur was supposed to learn earlier in this season (His Father’s Son)) or 3) to just move the plot along so Gaius could give up Merlin’s secret?
I wish Arthur didn’t have selective amnesia and remembered his earlier suspicions of his Uncle. He had some partial evidence that Agravaine wasn’t being honest and surely he still has a little inkling in the back of his mind. Perhaps it is just me, but I rarely forget when someone is being shady around me. I may forgive, but I don’t forget. One would think since Gaius has been around Arthur all his life that surely Gaius has proved his loyalty a million times over Agravaine. And how can he let Agravaine push him around, especially when he is being so over the top? Arthur says he trusts Gaius and there is no need to question him yet he lets his uncle do it anyways while he is hiding in the back of the room looking like a pouty child (Bradley does do a brilliant job but still…). I hate he doesn’t answer Gaius when he asks if he has done something wrong. I hate how Arthur is just looking away during the questioning when Gaius is watching him. You are the King, Arthur! Act like it!
I was appalled at how Morgana just waltzed into Alator’s prayer room like she owned the place. He was obviously praying or meditating….don’t be an ass, Morgana! I wonder if that first impression just stuck with Alator the whole time he was working with Morgana and when he did betray her he flung her a little harder against the rocks for it (I know I would have…).
Morgana giving up her healing bracelet which very well might be her last token of her sister shows us how much she fears Emrys.
I know someone mentioned seeing Merlin acting as a true servant when Agravaine was asking him to sharpen the dagger was nice, but do we think Merlin has to take orders from Agravaine? I mean he is the KING’s manservant, surely he has no time for that. This is why I think Agravaine had to make the task “something for Arthur” oriented.
Agravaine planting “magic” books in Gaius’s chambers is THE DUMBEST thing he could have done and would have been a red flag for Arthur if this episode featured Intelligent/Proactive Arthur and not Passive/Dumb Arthur. If Gaius really was guilty and running away, wouldn’t he had taken damning evidence with him?!
I like that Arthur let’s Gaius go because we all know he doesn’t want to hunt him down and have him questioned then sentenced to death for sorcery and treason. One thing I REALLY don’t understand is why Arthur doesn’t turn to Merlin and ask him questions about Gaius’s recent behavior. He could have waited until Agravaine left and then asked Merlin if he had any indication Gaius was turning on him. Intelligent Arthur would have questioned close witnesses….. which would include the person that lives with Gaius…. but no…. Passive/Pouty Arthur does nothing.
I, also, love the Gwen and Merlin scene, but what the heck is he doing reading some old letters? He knows Agravaine is behind this. He should be snooping sooner and not wasting time. Gaius is an old man and surely Merlin knows if he was kidnapped and maybe tortured he won’t last long. Speaking of the snooping… why doesn’t Agravaine accuse Merlin of snooping and get him locked up? I mean Merlin is just a servant.
I really wonder what Merlin’s limits are to holding off on magic. Morgana had a knife at his throat and he just cowers. Does he believe she won’t kill him since she has failed so many times before or does he have cat like reflexes and thinks he could stop that knife if she decided to use it? Or is he “seeing” Merlin and knows now isn’t his time? I am reading The Crystal Cave by Mary Stewart and there is a spot in that book where Merlin talks about how he just has a feeling this isn’t his time and thus he isn’t scared even though he is in a dangerous situation.
I do like the scene with Arthur and Gaius at the end, but I am tired of just HEARING about the world Arthur is supposed to be trying to create. I have seen nothing… not even baby steps… towards improving relations with magical people. Don’t just tell me, SHOW ME!
It just occurred to me that I have voiced a LOT of frustration with Arthur in this episode. I am not as familiar with Arthurian legend as others (probably because I am American), but in general I have always thought of King Arthur as pure of heart, honest and true. Does Arthur have to be this passive and dumb character because someone pure of heart, honest and true wouldn’t sneak around behind their Uncle’s back to do some background investigation? Some one of these characteristics wouldn’t question someone’s loyalty when that person has voiced loyalty out loud? SPOILER: I guess those characteristics are actually his bane and the death of him in the end… which leads to us asking what the moral of the show actually is, but we can discuss that at the end. 😁
Side Notes:
I think Merlin ducking his head and going on about his chores and blending in the background is him trying not to be noticed so he can eavesdrop on Agravaine.
It cracks me up that Alator raises his arms dramatically that when he releases the horse. Why does he do this?! Haha! I laugh every time I see it!
Merlin’s smile when Arthur wakes up and catches him in his chambers. ❤ Colin’s talent really is in his facial expressions no matter how subtle (the head cock when delivering the line “I know! It’s almost like having to work!”
Is someone leaving Camelot at night who is not a prisoner enough cause to ring the warning bells??
(In my notes during Gwen’s last scene) Oh look…Gwen’s breasts again…
I’m a HUGE sucker for blondes with blue eyes and quirky smiles! 💕
13th April 2021 @ 5:31 pm
I think it was reason 3, however in the end it only proved that under pressure of torture, Gaius would give away a secret. Morgana never learns who Emrys is from either Gaius or Alator either way so it’s hardly to spur the plot on.
I didn’t notice until you said, yes, Morgana does sort of just strut right into Alator’s room. If big guy spoke, he would have probably verbally told her to wait outside until she was called in, as his master was meditating. This adds a little more similarity people in this universe connect to ‘pendragons’. In s5 (spoilers) with the disir, they say to Arthur ‘you treat our sacred space like you do your kingdom, with insolence’. Morgana has no respect for even her fellow Old Religion followers, maybe coz as ‘high priestess’ she trumps Alator’s status.
We have seen before that Gaius would leave, but only if he serves no purpose. But he has never been one to ‘run away in the night’. During the purge he practiced magic. Did he run? No, he stayed. Gaius would have stayed to explain why he had those magic books, Arthur should even have voiced why he thought Gaius had them. It’s like a combo of the witch finder and goblin episode but Gaius is suddenly a runner!
I thought Merlin was on the floor because lots of medical books and papers got messed about in the search, so Merlin has been having to sort them. He after all might have been the only other person who can understand them.
I find myself disliking Arthur less and less after many rewatches actually, particularly s4 and s5. It’s not Bradley, he plays what he is told to brilliantly. But the show, order to keep dying running jokes going and merlin’s Tragic hero dynamic going, arthur’s Character suffers so much. He’s just getting dumb, annoying, contradictory and unfunny now. And don’t worry about not being up on the legends. Arthur in the show does not resemble that king really in my opinion.
I thought that too! About Alator & the horse thing, I was like ‘dude, not everything needs a grand magical gesture, just slap the horse’s bum and let it run’ haha. Also one would think the eagle eyed guards on the ramparts would report seeing a random riderless white horse loudly clip-clopping out of Camelot…
13th April 2021 @ 8:44 pm
You are right that it didn’t help too terribly much with the plot other than getting the Catha on Merlin’s side which will show up again in S5, I believe. Poor Gaius! Tortured for nothing…. or was this all so he could deliver that line of “One day you will learn, Arthur. One day you will understand just how much they (Merlin) have done for you.”
I like your comparison of Morgana and Arthur in regards to both being disrespectful (can’t way too discuss that episode!!) Maybe they both lack self awareness? I would argue Uther lacked self awareness too…. Pendragon trait??
You are absolutely right! Gaius is not a runner!!
Even if Merlin was cleaning up the place…. that can wait until after he finds Gaius!
Oh Arthur….
I’m glad other people for the horse thing funny! Just cracks me up how he’s all serious and does this grand gesture! I know he enchants the horse, but is the gesture necessary??
13th April 2021 @ 7:06 pm
I wish Arthur didn’t have selective amnesia and remembered his earlier suspicions of his Uncle. –
You know, I actually think that Arthur is probably semi-aware of this but he has been so damaged and hurt by previous family members deceiving him and betraying him, that he simply doesn’t want it to be true. It’s our attitudes and beliefs that decide how and what we see in the world. Family has always been hugely important to Arthur (he even calls his knight his ‘brothers’ – although that may be in season 5), especially since he has lived in such a disfunctional and incomplete one for pretty much all his life. Hence, he wants to hold on to as much of it as he possibly can.
I REALLY don’t understand is why Arthur doesn’t turn to Merlin and ask him questions about Gaius’s recent behavior.-
I think Arthur is fully aware of how much Merlin is hurting and doesn’t want to cause him any more heartache. Also, perhaps Arthur doesn’t ask because he is afraid of what he may discover. He takes the books and flight as enough evidence to condemn Gaius but also to let him go. He does not wish to ever encounter him again or learn more about potentially treacherous behaviour because his heart is already broken.
It cracks me up that Alator raises his arms dramatically that when he releases the horse. Why does he do this?! Haha! I laugh every time I see it!-
I alwas assumed he…enchants the horse? Tells it where to go? Maybe he is sending it to a fellow Catha priest as a belated birthday present. Oh, thinking more pragmatically, maybe it needed a grand gesture to shoo the horse into running away from his home stable where it lived comfortably and would be unwilling to leave, especially at such a late hour. But it’s comical nevertheless. There are a lot of grand gestures and words with Alator where I think, ‘Did they forget to add a special effect?’
14th April 2021 @ 1:50 am
You could absolutely be right about Arthur. I guess I never thought about how crappy of a family life he has had. You are absolutely right about different things affecting how people see the world. People can ignore a lot of things when they really want to….hence why people stay in horrible relationships.
I know Arthur is heartbroken about Gaius but I still think he should have done his due diligence and at least sent a knight or someone to ask Merlin? Maybe he does want to protect Merlin from heartbreak? Which is sweet…. but still….be smarter Arthur!
Sending the horse as a bday present…. hahaha love it!
12th April 2021 @ 11:23 am
Sorry, I don’t want to litter up the comments but there’s some thoughts that keep coming to me later.
People have been mentioning the way Merlin talks to Gwaine when he comes in, as if something happened off screen to make them a little awkward with each other, or that Gwaine’s been so preoccupied with training they are not as close. Absence in this case does not help the heart grow fonder. It’s interesting that Merlin is clearly not in the mood for people right now, but seeing Gwaine in the physicians chambers, Merlin doesn’t actually immediately ask ‘are you alright, are you ill/did you get hurt’ or something.
Which leads into the next point of ‘does that mean Camelot has no physician now’. In most of the gaius- centred episodes where he is missing or leaves or in jail, there’s never even a mention or small convo about who is to take over Gaius’ job. Granted we barely see him treat people but the show makes out he is the only one in the city to go to. This leaves Merlin as the only candidate to resume physician duties, so when he sees someone in the room, why not ask if they are in need of a physician first. Or that Arthur does not ask him to take over til a replacement can be found.
Merlin being given more credit and acknowledgment as a physicians apprentice of course even comes up in the next episode…
12th April 2021 @ 4:36 pm
very very fair point. especially because we have so many mentions of gaius making daily potions for people. most recently and most importantly of course the daily potion he made for Uther (that was poisoned with the manticor venom) – which I appreciate is less relevant now lol – but we also have it in S1E1 when merlin is asked to bring the potion to the blind man, i’m pretty certain that’s a daily potion, too. and he talks in the goblin episode about how he used to make daily remedies for the lady catrina, to help with her joint problems. so clearly many of his potions need to be freshly brewed, and clearly daily brewing is a really standard part of his job. but not when he’s kidnapped, put in jail, asked to leave Camelot…. and yes, Merlin should get so much more credit for so many things, including his physician apprentice duties! very true!
12th April 2021 @ 6:06 am
I really enjoyed this episode, surprisingly! I’d completely forgotten about it as well, so it was a pleasant surprise. I agree with all the comments – it was so, so good to have the real Gwaine back, Colin’s acting this whole episode was incredibly beautiful, and HOORAY for getting a scene with Merlin and Gwen together!
12th April 2021 @ 12:06 am
A few random notes:
1. Does anyone know who or what makes the strange animal-like noise in the intro to every episode? Right before Merlin opens his eyes. It always seemed a strange direction choice.
2. When Merlin is sitting with Gwen he is wearing his Black neckerchief ( not sure if we see this anywhere else) and his navy shirt because he is sad. I thought the costume department may have been laying it on a bit thick there.
3. Are the Catha a medical group of magic hypnotists? Because the words used and the methods of “Torture” seemed like hypnotism used in a bad way.
Anyway, just some random thoughts I had on the episode that I did not want to try fitting into my lesson for this week.
12th April 2021 @ 4:31 pm
so totally gonna have to go back and check on that neckerchief!!!! O_O
13th April 2021 @ 7:08 pm
Does anyone know who or what makes the strange animal-like noise in the intro to every episode? Right before Merlin opens his eyes. It always seemed a strange direction choice. –
Isn’t that a dragon’s roar? Maybe Im stupid – I’ve always thought it was a dragon, if I even noticed it at all.
11th April 2021 @ 11:11 pm
I forgot to add this before, but what I found interesting near the end of the episode, was how Merlin first meets Alator. After Morgana is knocked out, Merlin gets up immediately, understandably putting distance between Alator and himself, but the thing that always seems off to me was the way Merlin says the line ‘You have magic’. It’s accusing, edgy and said in the way Arthur would on suddenly coming face to face with a sorcerer, not Merlin. Like the word ‘magic’ gave a bad taste in his mouth.
I can’t really explain it properly in text, but I hope you get what I mean. Yes, Merlin should address a stranger who was apparently working with Morgana cautiously, but for the first words out of his mouth to sound like a muggle aggressively frightened of magic, and not just as another type of sorcerer that he’s met countless times before, never made sense to me…
11th April 2021 @ 11:27 pm
I don’t know if I’m not overthinking this, but to me it always sounded like an accusation “you have magic and you use it to torture people, that’s not how magic should be used!” – and since Merlin has no opportunity to say it to Morgana (since she doesn’t know he is an expert in all things magic), he says it here to Alator. A bit like he was arguing with Gilli in s3, telling him that magic shouldn’t be used for killing people and fame. For me, it’s just Merlin being consequently shown as the advocate of magic.
12th April 2021 @ 5:00 am
I don’t know that I see Merlin’s line here as accusation. Maybe utter surprise that someone would so freely reveal his own magic when Merlin spends every minute of his life hiding his. I think it’s shocking and outrageous to him to meet a magic user who owes up to being magical so frankly. It’s actually a really intriguing line as it comes right after Alator introduces himself. But Merlin doesn’t react to his name or statement but to his open display of magic. Also, it’s kind of new for Merlin that a magic user sides with him rather than tries to kill him /Arthur /everyone in the kingdom.
11th April 2021 @ 10:51 pm
There’s actually so much I love about this episode (more than I thought!) and I’m so glad it held up in your discussion!
The interrogation scene between Agravaine and Gaius with Arthur in the background is SO GOOD! As much as I hate Agravaine (or Aggravating Agravaine as I always called him when the series first aired!), Nathaniel Parker plays his part so well and Richard Wilson is brilliant at showing how uncomfortable Gaius is in the scenario as there are numerous layers to his lies – i.e. he wants to show Arthur his loyalty, he knows that Agravaine is the traitor and that he is trying to frame him, and ultimately defending/protecting Dragoon because he knows it’s Merlin! And of course Bradley James is stellar as Arthur here. I’ve just started doing acting at drama school this year and one of the first things we were taught is that how 93% of our communication is non-verbal, only 7% depends on the words we say (can’t remember the exact study those numbers were from but hopefully you get the gist!) and this scene is a perfect example. Arthur doesn’t even say anything for the first half of the scene and yet we know exactly how he feels and what he is thinking because of how he is standing, his body language and his eyes/facial expressions – like you guys said in the podcast, he is so uncomfortable and doesn’t want to be doing this to Gaius, so absolutely stunning from Bradley!
I have so much I want to gush about with Arthur and Merlin’s scene after Gaius has been kidnapped but that would take forever so I’m just simply going to say it’s BEAUTIFUL!
Totally agree with how lovely Merlin and Gwen’s scene is but I just wish it had been longer.
And of course Gwaine is back! 🎉 love how we revisit his friendship with Merlin in that wholesome S3 way and that Gwaine is shown again to be competent and intelligent with his knowledge of the iron ore. I am slightly irked however by the fact that he ends up believing Agravaine when he says he’s here to help Gaius, it’s just a bit of a quick turn around from him accusing Agravaine and then saying “oh OK fair doos” after Agravaine’s appaling lie 😩
Another beautiful scene to finish the episode between Arthur and Gaius. You can tell how gutted Arthur is that he let himself believe Gaius was the traitor after Gaius says to him “you should know I love you far too much to ever betray you”, my heart! They’re both so great here.
So yeah, genuinely a really nice episode with lots of highlights – we love to see it!
12th April 2021 @ 4:29 pm
— I’ve just started doing acting at drama school this year and one of the first things we were taught is that how 93% of our communication is non-verbal, only 7% depends on the words we say–
that makes absolute sense, and yeah, sometimes a LOT of credit has to go to a stellar script, but so often than not, especially in later season of a weekly television show I find, the turn around time between story construction and shooting final episode is ridiculously tight, and people don’t have time for a second, third, fourth pass at a script, showrunners are approving scrips that really shouldn’t be approved just yet, and scripts revisions are handed to actors in full costume on the day… all of this means that there’s so much that is happening apart from the script, that will make or break a scene, so those stats make perfect sense to me! and that of course includes everyone who is working behind the cameras as well. in this scene particularly the lighting and direction of the scene! stunning.
–I am slightly irked however by the fact that he ends up believing Agravaine when he says he’s here to help Gaius, it’s just a bit of a quick turn around from him accusing Agravaine and then saying “oh OK fair doos” after Agravaine’s appaling lie 😩–
I really do not know what happens going forward and I am so desperate for him to remember and realise that that was BS and that agravaine is evil, but I don’t think that’s the case, is it? 🙁 🙁 🙁
14th April 2021 @ 4:46 pm
Yes! Totally agree with how great the lighting and direction is in that scene – everything just really comes together!
I’ve watched all the series of Merlin many times as it was my obsession growing up and [SPOILERS!] sadly no Gwaine never remembers or realises this exact lie of Agravaine’s and it makes me so sad 🙁
14th April 2021 @ 10:49 pm
Boo Gwaine! BOO!!!!
11th April 2021 @ 10:46 pm
I have always really liked this episode both for the emotional beats (mainly provided by Colin’s superb acting) and for the glimpse it gives us of a magical community beyond Camelot and their views on Emrys/ Merlin. So far, we have only really heard about Merlin’s legendary role from a cryptic dragon, a gaslighting ex-magic medical practitioner and we know the druids have prophecies but don’t know their specific content (because the show just doesn’t do specifics!). I find the extension of the world through the Catha really fascinating.
I have had some thoughts on why Agravaine is being so over-the-top in his accusation of Gaius in this episode and why it might convince Arthur. Agravaine clearly adopts the manner of someone absolutely sure that they will be believed and that their position is untouchable. It is this absolute surety and conviction even in the face of Arthur’s own better judgement that we have often seen with Uther. Maybe this is why Arthur responds to Agravaine: his manner reminds him of his father whom he still misses and admires as a strong, good ruler. It is noticeable as well, that Agravaine also deals in unwavering absolutes with Morgana when he reports that Merlin is on their trail and might even now rescue Gaius. There is no hesitation in Morgana: she immediately follows him to pursue Merlin. And, once again in defence of Arthur, at the end, Agravaine also makes sure to speak with absolute conviction about having wronged Merlin and Gaius and owing them an apology. Certainly, Arthur will respect someone who pursues what they believe in single-mindedly but can equally fully backtrack and admit mistakes just as single-mindedly. Yeah…that’s my attempt at understanding why Agravaine gets away with this and why Arthur believes him. But overall, I am just a little tired of having to grasp at straws to make sense of Agravaine.
In terms of the Catha and Alator’s knowledge about Emrys, I think it becomes clear that Alator knows about Morgana’s ‘mortal enemy’. (SPOILER: In later episode, we know that the Catha have knowledge of their own prophecies and legends about Emrys – can’t wait to get to that episode!) Gary Lewis does a nice job acting ambiguously: he accepts the job because, as we learn later, he probably had to develop an opportunistic/hitman for hire lifestyle because he has been hunted and persecuted all his life. Also, I think we have definitely learned by now that magic users aren’t sweet kittens: they can use their magic for good but don’t shy away from violence either, especially when it is to defend themselves or others. Merlin does this too. Alator furthermore acts opportunistic by taking this chance to maybe find out more about Emrys himself. I love the plot twists his ulterior motives provided at the end. I really couldn’t see it coming!
Even though the dagger scene between Merlin and Agravaine doesn’t really make much sense, I really like it because for perhaps the first time ever, we see Merlin as ‘one of the servantry’ and can observe the way he interacts with other nobles. (We had some traces of it with the fake nobles in Gwaine – but they were fake, so I don’t think that counts.) Usually, we see Merlin removed from the rest of the servantry, sharing his scenes either with Arthur or Gaius. Here, we see Merlin as part of the larger castle staff: he can be commanded to appear for service by other nobles, he acts respectfully, listens silently until given leave to talk, must be ready to do people’s bidding. He stands before Agravaine very still and knocks on his door as every servant must. So, we see here that to the rest of the castle staff and nobles, unless they witness him with Arthur, he would not appear that remarkable. However, the fact that Merlin doesn’t knock on Arthur’s door and doesn’t act so subserviently and respectfully with him thus becomes a badge of their closeness, intimacy and loyalty. It’s brought out in their scenes together but the contrast to his behaviour with Agravaine brings it out even more.
I had to chuckle at the title of the book Agravaine places in Gaius’ chambers: “Witchcraft, Sorcery and Magic”. It doesn’t just say something more subtle like ‘A thousand useful spells and how to apply them’. No, the book is quite as much over the top and on the nose as Agravaine in this episode. Probably, the subtitle will be: “A forbidden book about evil magic that would convict anyone possessing it immediately”. 😊 Also, I kind of wonder why Arthur is so surprised to find books about magic in Gaius’ rooms. I mean, he and Uther have constantly gone to the man to sort out every magical disaster and consult his knowledge about magical beasts. Where did Arthur think Gaius gets it from? Some fancy wine?
The scene in the council chambers between Merlin and Arthur is just so heart-breaking on so many levels. Not only is Merlin faced with Arthur turning against his mentor, but, like we said in 3.3. (when Merlin was arrested for magic without Arthur’s interference), this scene can easily teach Merlin how quickly Arthur will turn his back on those he knows even better than Merlin. Pretty much every line brings home to Merlin what his own confrontation with Arthur would be like, should his magic ever be revealed: “it’s the lies and years of betrayal that really hit home”; “How can you believe this?” – “He was consorting with sorcerers.” – “And that makes him a traitor? He has given his life to this kingdom. He would never betray you.” Substitute ‘I’ for ‘he’ and we can see in what way this conversation would be seared into Merlin’s memory. No wonder he always goes along when Gaius tells him never to tell Arthur anything.
I also wanted to quickly note how rigidly Colin stands against that pillar, mirroring how much he has to fight to keep his emotions in check. His strange intonation when he speaks to Arthur also betrays this inner struggle. In contrast, when Gwen visits him and he is so open with her, he is almost folded in on himself and on the floor where we never see him, symbolising that he now feels free to voice his sadness.
The torture scene is…I’ve never really got it. Does Alator torture Gaius with the heat from the fire? Can’t Gaius simply stand up from the slab? The scene is confusing and underwhelming because we have no sense of what Alator is actually doing. And then, when Gaius gives away the information, the fire is gone and it’s just Alator speaking to him. It almost seems like they wanted to have a bigger visual effect and didn’t finish it in time. However, I do enjoy that Gaius calls Merlin the greatest ‘sosserer’. And the V/O of Gaius confirming the druid legend about Emrys while the camera still rests on Merlin’s face somewhere in the cave is masterful.
Oh, can we also all take note that this far into season 4, Gaius confirms the dragon’s prophecy from season 1: Merlin is the man destined for greatness and who will bring about the time of Albion. Let us note that at this point, season 5 was already confirmed! This late, they are still pushing the same prophecy and confirming their promise to viewers!!!
I’ve developed a tiny theory about Gaius’ past: Morgana says that Alator has at his disposal skills only known to initiates but then concludes that Gaius is a learned man and would know exactly what Alator can do. So, which one is it? Initiates only? Or learned men too? Later, Gaius quite easily combats special Catha-torture fire with a counter spell and all this made me wonder whether a young Gaius was once upon a time studying and dreaming to be a Catha priest. SPOILER! In an episode in season 5, Gaius furthermore reveals an intimate knowledge with the training and selection of Catha disciples. I know this is all headcanon but it would be such a cool avenue to explore!
Four tiny, final thoughts:
– How can Merlin find iron ore on Agravaine’s boots? As far as we know, he hasn’t been to the caves, nor has he had time because it has only been a day since Gaius’ abduction.
– When did Morgana become a sadist, revelling in the pain she will inflict on others? I don’t really get where that came from and, again, it’s something we are not given motivation for.
– In the final scene, Gwen is wiping Gaius’ brow, acting all concerned and absorbed. What I see in Angel’s features is this: There are only so many ways I can inefficiently wipe someone’s brow; I don’t have lines, can’t contribute to the conversation between Arthur and Agravaine or even acknowledge them. Why am I in this scene?
– I love the final scene between Gaius and Arthur: it feels really warm, intimate and genuine. But why didn’t they give us a flashback to Arthur as a ‘nursling’?! ☹
11th April 2021 @ 11:30 pm
Ooh Gaius nearly becoming a catha priest in his youth would have made such a cool addition to his background, it definitely also would suit his skills for mental manipulation and gaslighting people haha. Ultimately the want to heal people trumped the want to torture them professionally.
And unfortunately this isn’t a show that gives us flashbacks. There are so many occasions that I really think they could have benefited from ‘showing, not telling’ us of past events, but they just never do which is a real shame. Would have loved to see even just one or two flashbacks of small Arthur and small Merlin in their different upbringings..
13th April 2021 @ 7:11 pm
And unfortunately this isn’t a show that gives us flashbacks. –
You know, I have never noticed this but it’s so true. One of the most common features in any TV show and it’s completely missing from Merlin! Obviously, we’ve got foreshadowing (Morgana’s dreams, visions of the Crystal Cave) but I am honestly struggling to think of a single instance of flashback. Tell me if you can remember one.
12th April 2021 @ 12:00 am
I resonated with your comment about how the conversation between Merlin and Arthur is so impactful. You can see the betrayal on Merlin’s face as Arthur essentially tells him that if Merlin’s magic were discovered he would not be forgiven. I think this is one of those scenes that I really would have liked to be in a different episode because it is important to Merlin’s choices going forward, but I had forgotten completely about this episode and this conversation until now. As you said, I think we will see Merlin act on assumptions that he makes from this heart-wrenching conversation.
13th April 2021 @ 7:18 pm
It’s interesting that you thought this conversation would have been better in a different episode. We’ve said the same about the scene of Merlin’s arrest for magic in the goblin episode. Episodes focused on Gaius seem to often act as a catalyst for Merlin to mentally go through what would happen to him if Arthur really did find out about his magic: here, it was Gaius’ presumed return to the magic arts; in the goblin episode, it was Gaius-goblin’s false accusation that led to Merlin’s arrest and it was in The Witchfinder that Merlin could ‘safely’ witness the reality of what would happen to someone convicted of using sorcerery. In each and every case, Merlin got to witness an Arthur that would believe and go along with the authority figure and law. Even though now he is king, he still listens to the older authority figure of Agravaine. No wonder Merlin becomes completely convinced that Arthur would aboslutely chop his head off, were he to discover Merlin’s secret.
12th April 2021 @ 4:24 pm
—Also, I kind of wonder why Arthur is so surprised to find books about magic in Gaius’ rooms. I mean, he and Uther have constantly gone to the man to sort out every magical disaster and consult his knowledge about magical beasts. Where did Arthur think Gaius gets it from? Some fancy wine?—
even more so with that title it is so clearly a reference book that almost sound like it’s talking about the history and theory of magic, without any practical application what so ever, which, yeah, A&U both have expected Gaius to know things about, or have reference texts he can use to hand. also every time gaius has looked up magical beasts, surely they were in reference books about magical beasts found in the land, and no one’s condemned him for that. argh! show!!
—Does Alator torture Gaius with the heat from the fire? Can’t Gaius simply stand up from the slab? The scene is confusing and underwhelming because we have no sense of what Alator is actually doing.—
oddly enough, I never questioned this at all, but I saw a couple of people mentioning being confused by it. In my mind Alator is mentally probing at Gaius’ mind, while verbally interrogating him (for our benefit, or possible just the doulble questioning that gives him), and the fire / rock slab / cave is just standard torture method used to make things as uncomfortable as possible, to wear your subject down faster. And as I write this out I completely appreciate that NONE OF THAT is in the episode lol but yeah, has always been very certain in my head. for some reason. oops?
–Let us note that at this point, season 5 was already confirmed! This late, they are still pushing the same prophecy and confirming their promise to viewers!!!—
though I guess the question isn’t ‘was season 5 confirmed’, but ‘was season 5 confirmed to be the last season’? as having S5 confirmed but not yet started negotiations and discussions with Bradley and Colin on whether they would extend their contracts further is really what would lead you to artifically draw out the story line, and then once B&C say no, they’re done after 5, you’ve got to dramatically pull everything around, realising you should have started that a season and a half ago… it’s not an excuse at all, just pondering out loud.
13th April 2021 @ 7:28 pm
argh! show!! –
What I shout at the screen when watching Merlin. Roughly every 1-2 minutes! And with the progression of the seasons, it’s only gotten worse. Like contractions becoming more frequent and intense that lead up to a painful birth that I am still trying to discover from 9 years on. (Is that a spoiler or was my simile enough to confuse everyone?)
then once B&C say no, they’re done after 5, you’ve got to dramatically pull everything around, realising you should have started that a season and a half ago –
Maybe I am misinformed on this but didn’t they all confirm that the showrunners had always planned for a five-year run? I have never come across the information that they wanted to extend but Colin and Bradley wanted to move on. If you find a source for that, I’d be interested in reading it. But even so, I am pretty sure about the inital 5-season-plan. So, my question still is: what did you think you were doing? Where did you think you were going with these kind of promises half-way through season 4?
14th April 2021 @ 3:24 am
As to promises – SPOILERS, obviously
I will talk about it more when we come here, but to be fair, what Gaius is saying here is about Merlin uniting the old and the new world. There is no mention of Arthur. And well, it kinda DID happen, as Merlin himself is the bridge between the worlds. And as in the end, the uniting does happen kinda last minute. Okay, I’ll shut up now.
Another thing is, this show has been established as a tragedy since Merlin let young Mordred go, so I never held it accountable for “going back on promises” or “changing concepts”. Though I didn’t watch it in real time, so I remembered all the episodes quite well when I finished.
14th April 2021 @ 8:42 pm
SERIOUSLY: SPOILERS! So…I can kind of see how we can retrospectively make sense of the prophecy here after seeing the ending and…you know, being left with the need to explain what on earth they were thinking. But my point is that if you hadn’t seen the ending, it wouldn’t be the most straightforward interpretation of Gaius’ words. When I hear these in season 4 and don’t know what will happen in season 5, I will assume that Merlin manages to achieve freedom for magic in Arthur’s kingdom, that they both managed to unite all of Britain under Arthur’s rule, etc. That, I think, is the message and expectation they are setting up here. It’s the show doing what they do all the time: teasing a really good thing and not really delivering that good thing. Perhaps they did this from a desire to be surprising and unconventional but if that brings us a less satisfying and confusing interpretation of the ‘fulfilment’ of the prophecy than I wish they’d just taken out grand pronouncement like these or, you know, simply delivered what they promised even if we were all expecting it. Sometimes new and unconventional is NOT the best way forward.
Sorry – I know there are many people who like the way Merlin ended but I am 100% not one of them. Happy days are ahead….:(
13th April 2021 @ 2:11 am
-Not only is Merlin faced with Arthur turning against his mentor, but, like we said in 3.3. (when Merlin was arrested for magic without Arthur’s interference), this scene can easily teach Merlin how quickly Arthur will turn his back on those he knows even better than Merlin. Pretty much every line brings home to Merlin what his own confrontation with Arthur would be like, should his magic ever be revealed: “it’s the lies and years of betrayal that really hit home”; “How can you believe this?” – “He was consorting with sorcerers.” – “And that makes him a traitor? He has given his life to this kingdom. He would never betray you.” Substitute ‘I’ for ‘he’ and we can see in what way this conversation would be seared into Merlin’s memory.-
Wow! You really just blew my mind. I think I realized that is what this scene is meant to suggest to us, but thanks for laying it out there like that! I have always believed Arthur wouldn’t kill Merlin if he revealed his magic, but this convo suggests maybe not… I also love how you compared Merlin’s body language when talking with Arthur vs when talking with Gwen. Bravo!
13th April 2021 @ 7:20 pm
Oh wow – thank you. 🙂 I am sure I have just offered one interpretation. Like I said, Colin and Bradley always act on so many levels. It’s incredibly…I sometimes wonder if they managed to make these fictional characters more complex than I am in real life.
I have actually had a few more thoughts on this scene and what it communicates to Merlin about Arthur’s reaction to magic use. I have written it in my reply to Fallon’s reply on my comment, if you are interested.
13th April 2021 @ 3:42 am
Mary,
I should have included this in my earlier comment. Sorry!
I LOVE your “tiny theory” of Gaius’s past! I also caught Morgana saying those conflicting thing about the Catha and his knowledge about their ways, but I did not make the connection of Gaius putting out the fire needing to be a very powerful and likely a Catha spell. I like how Alator kind of pauses after that and since reading your theory, I can see Alator connecting the dots that Gaius has a past with the Catha. YES! I love this! I almost want to write a fanfic about this…. I wonder if there is one….
13th April 2021 @ 7:22 pm
Well, let me know if you write it or find one. I’d be surprised if anyone else engaged in such obscure mind-gymnastics though. Among my usually more serious comments, I generally find one or two things that sneak in that are slightly outrageous but fun to think about. 🙂
15th April 2021 @ 1:26 pm
I was just listening to A Remedy to Cure All Ills because I haven’t listened to D&C in chronological order but in order of episodes I like…. and I still have your Gaius and Catha theory in my brain. I think it’s this episode in season 1 that we first really learn of how Gaius basically turned his back on magical people during the purge and watched many many magical people die or suffer. I might be taking huge leaps here, but if Gaius did train with the Catha at some point, perhaps that’s why he is able to distance himself from his emotions and compartmentalize his belief about magic? I think if you were Catha you would certainly have to master that skill since they are known for torturing. Also, could his exposure to the Catha ways, which are secret and sound kind of horrible, made him rethink his support of magic and see how magic could be used to do bad? I’m not saying the Catha are bad but we absolutely know they have the potential for it…. haha wow I may be way off here but it’s fun to go down this rabbit hole!
11th April 2021 @ 7:49 pm
I found the episode very frustrating as I was watching it, but then ended up agreeing with you on why it was actually pretty good – I think I just got hung up on some of the utterly awful dialogue:
“When I found you, you were unconscious in the woods.” – Morgana hadn’t asked Agravaine what happened, so why did he just come out with that as if she didn’t know she was in the woods? I mean, the same thing could have been communicated (“hey audience, she was in the woods and Agravaine found her”) with something more emotionally-motivated, for example, like “you were unconscious for so long, Morgana, what on earth happened?”
“You are Alator of the Catha, warrior and priest. ” – I appreciate that Morgana has to indicate that she knows who he is (for… reasons) but surely a title would be more appropriate – like he calls her high priestess and “last of your kind” which indicates that he knows more about her than merely her name, that most people don’t know that, whereas “warrior and priest” feels like the most blatant exposition for the audience’s benefit ever.
“As the king’s right hand man, one of my jobs is to ensure his safety. ” – does Agravaine not have a more official-sounding title he can use? The line just sounds so lackluster too.
etc. Just a lot of lines that sound like they were part of the first draft and no one bothered to go through and polish anything not spoken by Arthur or Merlin. I mean, the show does tend to make non-protagonists talk in an old-timey way for no apparent reason (lots of “ah, indeed I do know the dwelling of the aged man” rather than “yeah I know where he lives” while Merlin and Arthur mostly speak normally).
I really wish the “warrior and priest” thing had been more developed – he didn’t do much warrior-ing, and his priest-ness was just spells that didn’t feel much different from stuff we’ve seen druids and other more OR-aligned magic users do. Especially, since he could have been contrasted with “high priestess” Morgana. Also, the new titles for Morgana piss me off and I’m not going to expand on that beyond what you all have already said because I would rather dwell on the things I did enjoy, such as… Gwaine being Gwaine! Beautiful directing leading to the parallel of Arthur and Merlin each being in the background of others’ conversations.
12th April 2021 @ 2:59 pm
you’re absolutely right, and while it’s totally never going to happen, because no one would vote for it, this episode would get us unbelievably drunk just for the ‘action/line for audience benefit’ rule by itself. wow. I’d never quite thought about the clunky, but also super obvious dialogue outside merlin and arthur before.
Also “ah, indeed I do know the dwelling of the aged man” rather than “yeah I know where he lives”made me laugh A LOT. So thank you for that!!
M Xx
13th April 2021 @ 7:33 pm
I would vote for this! Can this go on the drinking game potential episodes list? 😀
14th April 2021 @ 10:46 pm
the poll normally consists of the highest ranked four episodes of that season, meaning so far it’s totally still in the running, though I really cannot make a prediction on whether it will stay that way, or whether other episodes this season will bother the top 20 on the LoD… we’ll fine out soon!
M Xx
13th April 2021 @ 7:32 pm
“As the king’s right hand man, one of my jobs is to ensure his safety. ” – does Agravaine not have a more official-sounding title he can use? –
The king’s right-hand man my a****! Merlin’s Arthur’s right-hand man and always will be. No Uncle Agravaine will get between that!
11th April 2021 @ 6:47 pm
Hi there, new listener here from Canada (discovered Merlin about six months ago, started listening to D&C a couple weeks ago, really enjoying all the discussion that goes on here!).
Something that stood out to me was Merlin’s short, curt “I’m busy” to Gwaine upon finding his friend in Gaius’ chambers, and Gwaine’s hopeful “Well I guess you don’t need my help then”. The dynamic between them hints, whether intentionally by the writers or not, at something deeper behind Merlin and Gwaine not hanging out as much than just “resource management” or it was Eoin Macken’s turn to be the Knight this episode. Gwaine makes several comments in this scene that imply that he hasn’t seen Merlin as much lately, and Merlin’s brusqueness in contrast to Gwaine implies that Merlin has been the one pushing Gwaine away…As is often the case with this show, it’s hard to know whether these implications are intentional or just a side effect of lazy writing. But it definitely seems like as the series progresses and the stakes for Camelot and Arthur get higher, Merlin focuses more and more on Arthur at the exclusion of his other friends, and this scene illustrates that.
I don’t usually take notes, but as I was re-watching this episode, when Agravaine says to Arthur “We both owe Gaius and Merlin an apology”, I had to scribble down “Gaslighting, Agravaine you manipulative snake”. Agravaine’s use of “we” puts the blame on Arthur, when it was Agravaine who convinced him to interrogate Gaius in the first place! Just highlights the fact that Agravaine’s role within Camelot (and we’ve seen this in other episodes as well, ie His Father’s Son) is not just passing on info to Morgana but also to subtly undermine Arthur’s decision-making and confidence, to make the king feel even more dependent on his uncle for council.
Also, not sure if this applies to anyone else but I for one couldn’t un-see Gary Lewis’s Alator as the dad from Billy Elliot so the torture scenes were even more ludicrous because I was thinking “Why is Jackie Elliot, sad, jaded single-parent coal miner from Durham, wearing robes, neck tattoos, and hamming up this weird hypnotization/torture thing??!”
Finally, I really don’t like “Lamia” as an episode of the show, but I’m looking forward to the discussion you guys have around it!
11th April 2021 @ 8:50 pm
Welcome and high five! 🙂 I’m in Canada too 🙂
As to Merlin and Gwaine – it really does sound like there should have been some deleted scene about Merlin’s relationship with Gwaine in the previous episodes, doesn’t it? You can write your own headcanon based on the tension! Or, did the writers think that Merlin rudely denying Gwaine the [poisoned] lunch for Arthur in The Servant of Two Masters was enough of a reason for there to be a tension between them? Because I don’t think it is!
11th April 2021 @ 10:16 pm
Hey! I totally agree with your note about Agravaine saying “we both owe them an apology”, ugggghhh he makes me so mad! Totally putting the blame on Arthur when it was his fault but also even more annoying because we never actually see him give an apology to them either, it’s just Arthur (which of course I love because he’s so humble) but it just looks like Agravaine has totally got away with his gaslighting, booooo!
12th April 2021 @ 12:21 am
Welcome!
I agree with you that there are some weird things going on in the beginning of that scene with Gwaine and Merlin. The writer, Julian Jones, actually talks about it in the audio commentary, so thought I’d share that, as it answers some questions.
He said it’s two scenes stitched together and Gwaine wasn’t initially in it. There was another scene before this in the armoury. Merlin gets very angry in there and gets uncharacteristically rude because they aren’t believing him concerning Gaius. That is what Gwaine motivates go to Merlin and help him. Merlin, however, feels like the whole world is against him, which is why he rejects Gwaine at first. It takes him a second to realise that Gwaine is on his side. So it isn’t to imply that there’s something wrong in Gwaine and Merlin’s relationship, but it’s the situation’s fault that Merlin reacts that way.
Julian thought that the scene in the armoury wasn’t necessary because of the already established relationship the viewers would understand Gwaine’s motivation to help Merlin
To me it feels like the scene suffered from being stitched together because when he did that, he unintentionally implied things, leaving these questions to whether or not there’s is more going on between Gwaine and Merlin. I just don’t think it was thought out well because to me those lines, together with the acting, could definitely imply a deeper laying issue. Maybe Julian also wanted to imply more but didn’t say so on the audio commentary, I don’t know, but to me it looks like the scene was hastily written after the decision was made to combine two scenes into one.
12th April 2021 @ 2:04 am
That actually makes so much more sense! I’m kinda glad we didn’t get yet another scene with the knights acting like douches (I assume it was supposed to be the knights that didn’t want to believe Merlin in the armory?), but it would explain a lot of Merlin’s initial hostility towards Gwaine.
12th April 2021 @ 1:13 pm
no, sorry I didn’t say that clearly. Merlin is angry because Arthur isn’t doing anything.
12th April 2021 @ 1:39 pm
Huh. Well, that still doesn’t make a lot of sense then 😀 I thought that maybe, if Merlin had a conversation with the knights in which one of them said something hurtful and Gwaine was there and didn’t react, then Merlin’s saltiness towards Gwaine would be understandable. But if it was about Arthur anyway, then it’s still like in the episode we got: Merlin has a right to be upset in general, but it’s hard to understand why he’s so nasty to Gwaine if he wasn’t like that to Gwen when she came in earlier.
12th April 2021 @ 4:59 am
Ooh okay that makes a lot more sense! Thanks for sharing 🙂
13th April 2021 @ 7:36 pm
Oh, now I wish I could see that scene. But I don’t remember this being in the deleted scenes. I never understand how they put the DVD collections together. Surely every deleted scene should go into deleted scenes for the DVD, right? I mean, why be seletective about that?
9th April 2021 @ 11:39 pm
Aghh! I’m still behind on the podcast! I only just finished watching and listening to 3.11 Sorcerer’s Shadow, and I’m sorry to keep dropping in late comments on other episodes.
First, I wanted to thank Danuta for welcoming me last time I commented! This is such a great community, and I’m SO looking forward to the day I get caught up and can participate in sync with everyone else.
I really love the discussion of Sorcerer’s Shadow, and I think the discussion of Merlin’s and Gaius’s complicity in Uther’s reign of terror is really important. It totally went over my head the first time I watched the series (ha, I was so young, but I also only realized from your discussion of the goblin episode that the goblins in Harry Potter are antiemetic, so a lot of stuff goes over my head. On the bright side, your discussions are helping me better see problematic portrayals in other fandoms and be more aware!).
Anyway, I’m dropping in way late again here just to say that everyone made really good points about Sorcerer’s Shadow and I wanted to connect the discussion to Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. DS9 has some really interesting discussions about people the Bajorans call “collaborators,” and those discussions come from a very different place of sympathy than what we’re seeing (as of 3.11) with Gaius and Merlin. One of DS9’s main POV characters when issues of genocide and complicity come up is Major Kira, who was a rebel fighter against a genocidal regime. She has little sympathy for collaborators and emphasizes their complicity in a way that the show Merlin de-emphasizes it. While Merlin (show) sides with Merlin (warlock) in wanting to protect Uther and defending his actions with “I had no choice,” and hasn’t yet called Gaius out on his gaslighting (among other things), DS9 is a lot more willing to wrestle with those issues, even if they don’t have clean solutions. I think I better appreciate the discussion of Merlin for having watched DS9, and I think it would be interesting to pair those shows and watch them more-or-less simultaneously, if anyone is…I don’t know, looking for a further quarantine activity or something. The genocide in DS9 isn’t completely similar to the oppression of magic in Camelot, but I think the comparisons and contrasts are useful.
12th April 2021 @ 12:10 pm
sadly neither Ruth or I are Star Trek fans and neither of us have ever seen DS9, but the parallels definitely sound interesting for anyone who does watch both shows! Please do feel free to copy & paste your comment under the post for Sorcerer’s Shadow, for any future listeners and website users to maybe come across it, as they are going through the blog posts 🙂
https://www.fascinationandfrustration.com/episode-iii-xi-the-sorcerers-shadow/
M Xx
12th April 2021 @ 9:28 pm
Will do! Thank you for creating such a great community!
9th April 2021 @ 4:54 pm
I sometimes forget, but I hope it is not too crushing for you guys to have a whole bunch of people pulling apart your arguments and disagreeing with you- I hope you don’t take it to heart but it must wear you down! But this is an occasion where Ruth, you wore we down into liking this episode! Watching it I did enjoy it but I felt it wasn’t up to scratch, but from hearing you picking it apart a bit I am converted (which is always good, finding new ways to love Merlin :). ).
I do sort of struggle with some of the physical comedy between Arthur and Merlin, maybe I’m being hyper-aware but it feels quite unnatural and like queer-baiting? I think it was that one scene in another episode where Merlin catches a goblet, leaning over Arthur on his bed where my mum walked past and said something along the lines of ‘Merlin is a bit homo-erotic isn’t it?’. If she only knew… Well anyway I do love that side of the fandom and I love their relationship, but the way this stuff comes off in the actual show feels a lot like fan-service and doesn’t always quite work (but please feel free to change my mind!).
So when Gaius is being interrogated Agravaine asks whether he thinks magic should be banned, and eventually Gaius says “yes”. Obviously he couldn’t really say the opposite, and I couldn’t tell if he was lying, but in that moment it really feels like magic is indisputably the enemy. Literally everyone, except our evil hovel witch friend, believes magic should be banned, and at this point it just feels like the story we’re telling isn’t quite the same we thought it would be, like you guys said at the start of season 4.
This is kind of redeemed by the end- by Alator changing his mind and through Gaius and Arthur’s conversation. It’s so good that we finally have a pretty clear conversation that tells Arthur that magic is not all evil (although Gaius still doesn’t mention Morgana’s involvement? Well I guess that fire doesn’t need any more fuel.). Their chemistry was also a little odd to me?
In the earlier seasons, we saw Morgana’s relationship with Gaius a fair bit, but we’ve only ever been told or assumed that Arthur and Gaius are close/comfortable too, but their dynamic is so unfamiliar that this scene did just feel a little stiff to me.
This episode lands once again with Morgana having no friends, no allies except Agravaine. Emotionally, all this betrayal is definitely building her up to be a really fearsome and wretched villain, but practically she is just so powerless? She is so isolated at this point that she doesn’t feel like that huge a threat anymore.
I was so happy that Gwaine was in this episode! ‘Hot-head’, as described by Agravaine- I assume he was alluding to the hair. I thought that this would be the first time Morgana and him met, because (vague spoiler…) they do have a their own kind of of relationship (in that Morgana seems to like torturing him more than the rest). It would be cool to have their dynamic be a more established thing- obviously Arthur needs to be her main target, but actually it’s cool that there is this more lighthearted conflict too; Morgana is just kind of annoyed by Gwaine, and it’s cool to tie both characters into the story a little more, and also it might be a useful plot device to distract her from Merlin, since her repeated failure to stab Merlin in the brain is getting tiresome.
Looking forward to reading everyone else’s comments! Not looking forward to Lamia though.
11th April 2021 @ 11:54 pm
I agree, it seems she is vaguely aware of Gwaine in series 3 and 4 but not in on the plots to know much about him. However she is unaware all few circumstances Merlin, Arthur and Gwaine had been together, just how close they are, particularly Merlin and Gwaine.
If Agravaine said something more about Gwaine other than him being a ‘hothead’, like maybe ‘and he would follow merlin anywhere’, this episode could follow nicely into the scenario in s4 finale (spoilers:) because she doesn’t like Merlin always thwarting her plans, at least she is getting particular satisfaction from making Gwaine fight til he dropped, because he was so close to Merlin. Of course… this could only work if Agravaine has seen Merlin and Gwaine hang out a lot since he came to Camelot, and judging by what we have seen, Merlin and Gwaine have barely even spoken to each other as friends all season til now.
Morgana must surely be feeling the burn from these constant rejections from rulers and magical torturers alike, personally I’m really starting to see the gradual and understandable explanation to why she (again spoilers:) begins to ally with eastern invaders and ultimately the Saxons instead.
8th April 2021 @ 11:56 pm
I also love the post credit scene with Arthur and Merlin. I think it’s a nice follow on from last episode where we last saw Merlin being forced to learn polishing from George. We now see Merlin dramatically revealing a long list on polishing as if to say ‘haha now you must suffer too’. I don’t think giving a speech to the ‘guild of harness polishers’ was actually on arthur’s To do list, it was just merlin getting cheeky revenge in arthur’s sleepy state. A sign he is his old self again, and yet a contrast to how his dynamic with Arthur shifts to coldness in the same episode.
I like the character of Alator, I never personally got the impression he only just heard of Emrys this episode and therefore his going back on his arrangement with Morgana did not seem strange. Just coz he gave nothing away to us doesn’t mean he knew nothing until now. To my eyes, He kept up the pretence he was just going along with a job and knew nothing of Emrys from the moment Morgana brought him up because he always had another agenda. He is trained to give nothing away himself. Yes, he could have clarified he always wanted to meet Merlin when he revealed himself to be an ally, but what else is new when it comes to leaving out essential scripture in this show. To me, alator is a former follower of the Old Religion, now turned rebel. He gets by financially by being a torturer for hire due to his skills, but has been waiting for an opportunity and sign that his new ‘lord and master’ has joined the world. True, he got his info from Gaius by torture and it’s strange that Merlin just got over that quickly, but I’ve always loved morally grey/anti heroes to the idea that there is a good side and a bad side, and alator reminds me of that premise. Again, could just be me seeing more than they are showing, but that’s my interpretation.
I get for a family friendly show, the torture is just a load of psychic speech and fire symbolism that comes nowhere near Gaius, but if they showed visually that the manipulation was going now inside gaius’ mind and bringing him actual pain, I would believe much more why Gaius could no longer take it.
I’m not up on knife sharpening, but it doesn’t appear to be that late at night when Agravaine tasks Merlin with sharpening a dagger and yet he still is gone ALL NIGHT until he places it next to Arthur when sun is streaming in through the windows the next day. There are many other things you can get a servant to be busy doing all night.
Colin morgan’s Acting is gorgeous during the hall scene, I wish Merlin just decided there and then to have a right go at Arthur and unleash all the very un-secret dislike he has towards Agravaine at this point. I appreciate why he is trying to hold in so much emotion in this scene which you can see he has barely any patience anymore now that Gaius is potentially in danger, but I just think we need more Truth-Merlin and more emotional Merlin in this episode. He has every right in this moment to use his easy position with Arthur and the excuse of the height of this situation to have Arthur hear all he is able of telling him. If Arthur still won’t listen or doesn’t believe him, at least he tried. When Arthur said he didn’t want to lose another friend and got the last word in and left, I wanted Merlin to tell him ‘well you are losing another friend’ or something, and got to storm off first!
There was no need for any reveal that Agravaine had these books under his bed if Merlin already knew he was the traitor and he does nothing with the books later, either for calling out Agravaine for falsely incriminating Gaius or otherwise. Merlin is only there to find evidence of where to find Gaius and gets what he needs if we saw him only finding the iron on the boots.
I’m also glad that the writers remembered Gwaine was a character in this show, and a close friend to Merlin. Though he still doesn’t have much of his unique personality shine through as before, he is still the one who comes to Merlin to check he’s okay, and Gwen too, so there are those scarce good points haha. I would have liked Gwaine to be added to the short list of people suspicious of Agravaine by their own merit, but I can kinda get why in the moment Gwaine let Agravaine spew nonsense to get Gaius out of danger quicker. If only afterwards it was made clear Gwaine didn’t really believe Agravaine completely. Gwaine is well travelled, a man of the world, you can’t kid a kidder.
There was a deleted scene where Merlin is talking and walking with Alator along a path. Another one of merlin’s ‘Goodbyes to potential allies’ scenes we see, yet this one could have made it into the show if it was unique to the others, with there being more of a worshipper speaking to his deity type-feel, and Merlin not completely forgiving Alator for getting his info by torturing his father figure. Then as they part ways and Alator is gone from view, we could see Gwaine on horseback coming to meet Merlin, showing he wasn’t just forgotten in the caves (cough Spoilers cough).
I don’t really like how in the end Arthur gets let off again too easily for his behaviour and disregard of Merlin’s opinion or Gaius’ actual circumstances. Yes he comes to apologise, but again for comedy sake, he shrugs it off to tell merlin to get on with his job, despite Merlin being Gaius’ rescuer and was right about Gaius not leaving on his own. I remember thinking when I first watched this episode when back, that Arthur will still forget whatever lesson he is supposed to learn here, based on his return to banter with Merlin. Too soon, dude.
It’s frustrating that in this whole episode, still no one communicates with each other. Agravaine doesn’t take Merlin aside like Morgana did in s3 and threaten to him that he won’t be believed, or still play the innocent and try to persuade him that whatever he saw in his room was completely explanatory. Gwaine doesn’t report to Arthur (as far as we know) what happened, Gwen never talks to Gaius as she is treating him, Gaius doesn’t tell Arthur that Agravaine was in on everything, or about Uther’s death being caused by Morgana. Surely after dragoon attacked the knights last episode that would make him look like the bad guy, so Gaius should have tried defending dragoon’s morality.
Finally, I’ve Had enough of Morgana ending every episode getting knocked out by landing on her side, and sadly that won’t change any time soon.
10th April 2021 @ 1:57 pm
– Yes he comes to apologise, but again for comedy sake, he shrugs it off to tell merlin to get on with his job, despite Merlin being Gaius’ rescuer and was right about Gaius not leaving on his own. I remember thinking when I first watched this episode when back, that Arthur will still forget whatever lesson he is supposed to learn here, based on his return to banter with Merlin. –
Even if they return to banter in this scene, I think there’s a lot more going on sub-textually. The look they give each other before Merlin leaves the room says so much. It basically has all the unspoken agreements between them in it. That Arthur isn’t actually mean to Merlin when I assigns Merlin his chores, that Merlin is okay with it, that he understands. There’s an apology in Arthur’s eyes despite his words and Merlin sees that. He sees that Arthur genuinely feels bad for what happened and that is why he accepts Arthur’s apology so easily. Merlin knows Arthur. He sees everything Arthur is trying to tell him with that one look because Arthur has never been very good at articulating his emotions and apologies.
This scene only works because it’s Merlin and Arthur who know each other like that. If there wasn’t this relationship between them, then I would 100% agree with you, but here it I think the way the show did it works.
The way you collected every bit of lacking communication makes it all even more frustrating. There’s such a long line of things that keep unsaid and everything together certainly doesn’t count as “not having proof” anymore, like Gaius says. Too many incidents and too many people have been involved in this. Just give Arthur some basic trust please…
12th April 2021 @ 11:56 am
–True, he got his info from Gaius by torture and it’s strange that Merlin just got over that quickly–
actually, that just made me realise that they (maybe unintentionally) did a really clever thing here, by splitting up gwaine and merlin, as when merlin is found by morgana, and then saved by alator, and welcomes his pledge of alliegence, he knows gaius was kidnapped but actually has no idea what’s actually happened to gaius and how bad it is, and considering that alator is clearly on merlin’s side, I guess Merlin can be forgiven for thinking that maybe there wasn’t actually any torture, or certainly not all that bad… and by the time he gets back to camelot of finds gaius, it’s well past the point of being able to do anything about it I guess. hmmmm.
13th April 2021 @ 5:58 pm
Yeah, I guess it would make sense, if it weren’t for the foreknowledge Alator will be back and by that time Merlin must be well informed of what happened in that cave. I would have loved to have seen Merlin have a strange relationship with Alator compared to others who worship Emrys, as this ‘loyal’ guy still personally tortured someone he loved just to get his identity… even though Merlin technically never sees Alator again after this episode 🤔
8th April 2021 @ 2:52 pm
I agree with you – this is a good episode! And its problems come from the general problems with season 4, not from within the episode.
As to the imagery of the far-away place where Morgana finds Alator, I’m a bit conflicted, because on one hand, it looks a bit stereotypically Oriental (but everyone in the crowd seems to be white) – but on the other hand, I like the fact that they still mixed different “mythic” traditions so as not to give an impression of a very specific place in our world. Like, Alator has still Celtic Ogham markings on his robes, but the robes look definitely different, and the feel of the room in which Morgana finds him looks like a crossover between Buddhist place of prayer and an Orthodox candle rack. Just an observation, I don’t really have coherent thoughts about it. In general, the whole strikingly different imagery + the fact that it suddenly turns out that there is some cast of warrior male priests of the Old Religion makes me want to find that lost chronicle of Old Religion and learn about all its schisms. It’s sad that the chronicle was lost 😉
Alator gets his own musical theme. I don’t really have many thoughts on it either, other than there is a lot of harp, and harp = magic. But, SPOILER, this theme will come back, and it will be tied to the Catha.
The blade ruse is strange, as you noticed, but doubly strange because Merlin knows Agravaine is evil. For all he knows, this blade could be enchanted so that Arthur dies when he touches it or whatever.
Everyone’s so on top with their acting in this episode! I almost forgive Agravaine for being creepy because Nathaniel Parker plays him so well, especially in the interrogation scene. Richard Wilson is also great. Bradley James plays conflicted Arthur splendidly. And Eoin Macken is so great as the beloved season 3 Gwaine. But oh my goodness, Colin Morgan and his micro-reactions. And the way his voice breaks when he says “Gaius wouldn’t have left without saying goodbye”. The tears, the turning of his head, everything is so perfect.
LOVE Gwen and Merlin. I also regret that their scene wasn’t longer, but the one gesture of Gwen putting her hand over Merlin’s shoulder made me instantly search for Merlin & Gwen friendship fics on AO3 when I finished the episode.
Of course, love to Gwaine and Merlin as well. Though I must say, Merlin is a bit too grumpy about Gwaine in the beginning. I get that he’s upset about Gaius and maybe a bit bitter about the fact that Gwaine seems to have forgotten him. So I get it. But it still hurts, especially so we’ve just seen Merlin react friendly to Gwen, and because just one episode ago, Merlin was possessed and nasty to Gwaine, and Gwaine looked so hurt I wanted to cry. It almost looks like Merlin’s still possessed in the beginning of their scene here. Thankfully, it quickly changes.
Of course, I agree that not telling Arthur about Agravaine is so stupid. Especially so Merlin has just found a box of magic books under his bed. I guess we have to assume that Agravaine, having seen Merlin sneak, has hidden the books so that he can’t find them anymore? Idk.
(and lastly, one stupid remarks about bras and George 😀 It’s actually more anachronistic for the ladies in Merlin to wear stays than for George to mention bras, since the stays in their earliest form don’t appear until roughly 16th century, while in the recent years, archaeologists found what looks like a 14th century bra – here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jul/20/medieval-bras-history-women-support
I guess George was just the only person who knew about historical accuracy and therefore nobody understood his jokes. Poor man 🙁 😀 )
9th April 2021 @ 4:28 pm
I was also so taken aback by Merlin’s grumpiness in this episode! I know you’re having a tough moment but his reaction to Gwen for example was much less guarded and he was very honest and vulnerable saying ‘I thought you were him’ or something. I liked the idea that maybe Gwaine has been galavanting about and hasn’t had much time for Merlin- it’s cute to imagine a little side story where Gwaine is maybe losing himself a bit in his role as a knight! But yea you have to do a little head-cannoning around that interaction to justify it.
And yes that is exactly the problem with the blade ruse! Merlin, you have literally seen for yourself that Agravaine is the traitor, why on earth would you go along with such a suspicious plan?
Also if you have any particular Merlin/Gwen fics you enjoyed, I’d love to hear them! I’ve only recently got into fan fiction and there are some real gems!
9th April 2021 @ 5:51 pm
I’m still on my quest to find really great Merlin & Gwen fics in which their relationship is on the forefront, not just as a background to Merlin/Arthur or another pairing… I’m constantly getting distracted, to be honest, there is just so much good fic out there! 😀 But when I find something, I’ll link it here 🙂
I really like your little side story, and I wish we saw it on screen… oh well, I guess there should be SOME fanfic for it out there 😛
10th April 2021 @ 1:27 pm
that far-away place raises some questions for me as well. Like you said, it doesn’t have one specific culture it’s referencing. I felt like it was just supposed to feel “exotic” or something and I don’t know how that fits into our knowledge of the world and also the old religion. I have even more questions now on how big the world of Merlin is, how many cultures it has and how they align with the cultures of the real world. Also how broad os the spectrum of the old religion? Before it always seemed like it was more nature centred with a certain look and aesthetic attached to it (Morgause, evil Morgana, Nimue, the druids). And I don’t think we see the old religion have any other look than that looking forward (I might be misremembering that though). Which is odd considering they made quite the effort here to say that the old religion can have many different influences and therefore look different.
The world building of Merlin has already been inconsistent, barely established and confusing and the whole Catha thing raises so much more questions for me. This episode almost wants us to make us more curious about what the whole extend of the old religion looks like, giving us a glimpse at more, while knowing the show doesn’t have the time or scope to explore it in a way that would be satisfying.
10th April 2021 @ 8:00 pm
SPOILER ALERT FOR PARTS OF SEASON 5: it’s even more interesting with the Catha in the future. When we see them in Season 5 and they are communicating with each other using writing, they actually use Persian cuneiform to represent their writing system. As far as I remember, Catha is the only magical culture that is influenced by Eastern imagery (two other notable examples include: the writing on Cornelius Sigan’s heart, which was in Georgian alphabet (which makes sense as he was supposed to travel all around the world), and the castle of Nemeth which we see in Season 5 when Mithian is captured looks REALLY Byzantine). I wish we knew what stood behind this choice – other than “we need to shake things up a bit and use more varied imagery so that the viewers won’t be bored”.
To be fair, in the shot where Morgana rides to the far-away place, we can see that it is some kind of a fortress by the sea, which makes me think it has a port = there are lots of foreign goods being traded there. Additionally, the name “warrior priest” as referring to the Catha makes me think “knights Templar”, and obviously, the knights Templar had lots of Eastern influences because of the crusades. Does it have anything to do with the world of Merlin? I have no idea, but it sure makes me want to write a very worldbuild-y fanfic no one would read 😀
11th April 2021 @ 5:04 pm
God there are so many interesting details in there! It must have been given some deeper thought, right? I don’t have enough knowledge about the whole thing to give it an explanation myself, but I would love to understand what it all means in the context of the show. It’s one of those things I don’t want to read in a fanfic but just want the show to have done. But I guess that chance is long gone. We have to make sense of all the little pieces left all over the show to hint at bigger world building, but I’m not even sure that would get us anywhere, not knowing whether the creators actually gave it any deeper thought.
I’m afraid that it actually is “using more varies imagery so that the viewers won’t get bored”. I have no idea how putting Eastern influences into the show could be explained otherwise, as the show doesn’t give us any of the world building alongside it. I do hope the creators might have given it actual deeper thought and it can be explained with some world building that the show hasn’t been given the time to actually explore, but I’m not confident they did.
11th April 2021 @ 7:54 pm
“As to the imagery of the far-away place where Morgana finds Alator, I’m a bit conflicted, because on one hand, it looks a bit stereotypically Oriental (but everyone in the crowd seems to be white) – but on the other hand, I like the fact that they still mixed different “mythic” traditions so as not to give an impression of a very specific place in our world. Like, Alator has still Celtic Ogham markings on his robes, but the robes look definitely different, and the feel of the room in which Morgana finds him looks like a crossover between Buddhist place of prayer and an Orthodox candle rack.”
I definitely agree that it looks “Oriental” – there was, to me, a definitely orientalist tinge to that whole section which made me pretty uncomfortable. Like, “ooh look at this exotic magic man! do we trust him? he has tattoos and weird eastern robes!” you know? “Warrior and priest” kind of adds to those vibes too actually. Just a bit uncomfortable. Not intentional, I’m sure, but orientalism is such a regular thing in fantasy (Quirrel’s turban, for example) that it’s not that big a surprise it would turn up. Though, you’re absolutely right that it’s interesting and that it would be really cool to know how it fits into the OR overall!